ClutchFans Game Thread: Celtics @ Rockets 3/18/2005

I don't need to prove you as a faker because I haven't accused you of being one. I use the word "pretend" in the sense of as claiming authoritative status with words "cold hard facts" when it's merely your personal interpretation, which is proven to be containing errors. I was not accusing you as a faker.

You have lost your marbles if you and Puedlfor think that the inability of grasping official info such as fouls does not affect a writer's credibility, in a report that claims to be factual. If you can't get this point, no further discussion will.

 

While I do commend you on being older than I am to the point where you are able to reminisce history, let me clarify one thing. If Yao were to get the same number of touches in last night’s game in their next outing against Minnesota, except this time our perimeter shooters hit better than or equal to their averages, what then? This would establish the inside-outside game and keep the defenders honest, eventually even increasing the number of times Yao is able to take open shots. I don’t see what’s so “asinine” in blaming last night’s game on poor shooting rather than blaming our guards for not passing Yao the ball enough times. Nowhere in all this am I looking to limit Yao’s presence in the offensive schemes, if that's the mistaken impression I may have left with you.

 

R2K, thanks for reviewing the game and gathering some interesting stats. I just want to make a couple of comments.

Firstly, 23 touches for Yao out of 65 possessions is probably nowhere near enough to establish an effective inside/outside game. Earlier in this thread I noted that Shaq and Kobe both had about 25 shots per 48 minutes during their championship years. So the center (Shaq) probably had 40 or 50 touches every game, and this is likely what is needed to play inside/outside effectively.

Secondly, notice that Yao's touches/possession was by far the highest in the 4th quarter, when the team desperately needed his production. That is not good. They should have fed him constantly throughout the game.

 

An observation here:

If the ball was touched by 2 players in every possession, then there will be 65*2 = 130 touches. Divide that to 5 players on the court, then on average, a player got 130/5 = 22 touches. Yao got 23 touches during the 65 possessions.

Of course, 1 pass per possession is kinda low unless in an ISO kind of offense. There are also fast breaks in which normally only 1 player touches the ball on the offensive end. But we are talking about average. My guess is that the average will be greater than 1 pass per possesion on any good team, include the current Rockets. So Yao's touches are below average on this team.

Post players normally don't involves in passing game as much as perimeter players. Unless it's a point center or point forward or in a trangle offense. Interprete it anyway you like it.

 

Just watch the game (thanks R2k) I have to say just a bad lucky lose, no big deal.

Most shots took by our guards are good open shots. It just not fall in. The whole game execution is ok and they are so hot and we are so cold(much much bellow our average and not because their D just because our hands too cold) and we just lost 11 points. I want to say if we match up them in 5 or 7 games we will definitly beat them up and up.

so don't argue yao's touch #. We should watch the whole game plan.
I just want to say It is just a bad lucky lose, that's it.

 

Good points..and Ill give you that...I never claimed to be perfect.

but

one....the link was fixed...a typo on my part in the link...see, I told you I wasnt perfect

two....I also explained at least twice what defined a touch...a pass given to Yao when he was in a position to score...on the block...or in the paint....
now...I have played(competitvely) and watched this game for over 30 years...I know enough to be able to conduct redimentary possession breakdowns....which is basically what I did..

The link si fixed on that vid...I also posted that link in my main video thread for this game...it isnt like noone can see it...check me,.....prove me wrong.
Thats all I am asking...you think Im wrong.....check the video.

there is no abiguity in a post player getting the ball in a position to score...they are very obvious plays....low block(on either side)...along the painted area up to the free throw line with his back to the basket....also in the middle of the paint...these are the touches I counted.

What is so difficult to see here??

be objective...I am...I have no reason to lie...I even admitted that I actually would love to see them feed Yao like Dream used to get the ball on nights like this where the opponent can hardly stop him(except to foul hard or swarm him)...

my main reason for persisting in this arguiment is to show that the Rockets are not totally ignoring him....to show that just because he only has X number of shots attempted....doesnt mena that he only had X number of touches....that is a falsehood...one that can be easily shown by watching the tape and being truthful with yourself..there are gonna be some that dont want to see the truth cause it makes them look stupid for persisting with their "Yao no touches" argument.
I dont expect objectivity from them....I hope for it...but dont expect it.

 

you arent understanding what is meant by touch in this case...maybe I should have called it "plays run for Yao"

like I have explined at least 3 times now...I counted the number of times that Yao setup for a pass(intended for him to either score or act as he was going to score)...and recieved one from his teammates.
the number of possessions was the number of plays the Rockets ran...be it by inbound after opponents made shot, rebound on opponents missed shot, or be it by turnover by opponent...

I am not actually counting the number of times each player is touching the ball during one play/possession...if the Rockets come down the court...and they setup into their offense...and Yao posts up...and then receives the ball from a teammate...and then either shoots, is fouled(preventing him from shooting), turns it over, or passes out....it still only counts as one touch...if during the play...he receives the ball...and then passes it to Wesley, who then passes it back to Yao......it still is only counted as ONE touch.

understand the methodology now?

 

R2K:
The Rockets launched 75 shots in total and grabbed 10 offensive boards, and you only credited them with 65 possessions. I think it would be misleading if you emphasize "Yao got passed the ball 23 times out of 65 possessions." without telling how many plays were run in total. You define touch as "plays run for Yao" but you don't tell the total of plays run for the Rockets, instead you chose to focus on the lower number of total possessions that don't reflect the higher number of total plays of the Rockets. Talking about unfair comparison.

 

Yao should have shot the ball 23 times not just get 23 touches. the guy who was scoring at will when he wasn't too busy fouling out their entire frontcourt or passing out of double teams for wide open threes. like Worrell said, the rockets "only" strategy last night should have been going inside to Yao because they "didn't have an answer for him." I don't know if we would have won if they did that, but the game would have been a lot more competitive. anyway, there's no point in discussing anymore... everyone's already set in their own views.

 

there's no point in discussing anymore... everyone's already set in their own views.


That's the point

 

Toro:

What I find asinine is calling anyone who says Yao should shoot the ball more / get more touches etc. an "idiotic YOF".

 

You know if it's one thing I never wanted to resort to on any message board it's name calling, and I did just that with the "idiotic YOF" comment. Althought I didn't intend to label just anyone who wanted Yao to shoot more an "idiotic YOF", rather just those who cited the Boston loss solely on Yao shooting 5-7 (and no other factor), this still does not make it excusable. Sorry ole chap; I retract that line from my post.

Damn! Who knew a bad loss against a hot shooting Celtics squad could incite this much debacle?

 

Boston is a totally different team since they got Walker back. I watched them play again last night against NO. It's interesting to note that they used the exact same strategy against us and ran NO out of the gym in the 3rd quarter.

That team features great outside shooting. They ran P&R very well. Their centers have great outside shooting touch (LaFrentz and Blout). They have superstars and it's amazing that both Pierce and Walker are playing very unsefishly since they got Walker back. From the 4-5 games I watched them play in the last 2-3 weeks, it seems that they always have the ability to exploit the hot hands. The stars set the tone, and guys like GP and Banks follow, even Ricky Davis has become less selfish in their little run. It's truly remarkable to see Pierce give away his shots (when he was 67% from the floor) to his teammates when the game was basically over in early 3rd quarter.

They are now a legitimate team to come out of the East (Pierce usually has Piston's numbers). And I am not sure that the Rockets can beat them in a best of 7 series mainly with perimeter games (Pierce matched up with Tmac very well when he was playing for Orlando).

Basketball games are all about mismatches. The coaches and players know it, and I only wish that the Rockets execute the game plan in the playoffs because a couple of stupid games and you are likely done.

 

Thanks fa, you got the point. we were defeated not because our players had cold hands, but we had wrong strategies and changed the strategy too many times in a game.

 

Nobody proves or disproves anything. Even if those #s are all right ("cold facts"), that still subject to interpretation. Don't even bother to argue with those narrowminded, dirty words spewing guys. Oh yea their English is good, because they know so many 3-letter and 4-letter words.

 

can we stop bumping this already?


dammmmit!