ClutchFans Game Thread: Celtics @ Rockets 3/18/2005

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/...rs/LeagueLeadersFGA8Query.html?topic=1&stat=5

Nba.com has Yao at 39th in the league in fga/48min. But I get your point. His FGA per game looks so bad because he doesn't play many minutes.

 

BTW, I know this is a side note, but look at these rediculous career numbers by Shaq vis a vis other great centers in NBA history:
FG% FT% RBS APG BPG PPG
Shaq .578 .532 12.0 2.9 2.50 26.8
Dream .512 .712 11.1 2.5 3.09 21.8
Wilt .540 .511 22.9 4.4 ???? 30.1
Kareem .559 .721 11.2 3.6 2.57 24.6
Russell .440 .561 22.5 4.3 ???? 15.1

So come to think of it, Russell would have never be included in that list if he did not win 11 championships, because his offensive numbers are average at best (look at that FG%), while his defense/rebounding was monstrous, much like Wilt's.

Based on those stats, I think a very strong case can be made for Shaq as the 2nd or 3rd best center of all time.

Here is how I would rank them:

1) Wilt
2) Kareem
3) Shaq
4) Olajuwon
5) Russell

I guess you could interchange Shaq and Kareem as either #2 or #3. I gave the edge to Kareem because of his longevity, in which he was rather very productive. Also, if you saw Kareem's body size and compared his stats to Shaq, you would be even more impressed.

Those, in my mind, are the immortals

 

Yes, and so was Yao out a couple of games also.

I compared their stats based on 63 games played by each this season.

 

Interesting, Yao's personal player stats page clearly states "Ranks #13 in the NBA in Field Goals Per 48 Minutes(10.51)", check it out yourself:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/yao_ming/index.html?nav=page

 

one is FGM and the other is FGA

 

#13 field goal made per 48
#39 field goal attempt per 48
FGM/48min:
Yao Shaq Amare
10.51 12.34 12.60
FGA/48min:
19.14 20.78 22.3

No big difference.

 

The real problem is his MPG 31.1.
Amare 36.2
Shaq 34.2

 

Yah, that is pretty interesting that in 48 minutes, Shaq averages slightly more than one FG attempt per game.

But as I said before, if Yao continues to score as he does, and ups his rebounding to about 25 rbs/game, he would be well on his way to 11 championships, much like Russell

 

I think Clutch made a mistake about the final score. It should be 103:92.

 

I'm not surprised that we lost. Boston has depth and youth and are moving the ball well. I wish Howard was fit. He could have hit some outside shots and posted up as well.
We need to do much better against the Wolves or we will lose against them.

 

That is not always true. In the Lakers' championship years, the number of field goal attempts per 48 minutes were roughly the same for Shaq and Kobe.
<table><tr><td><td><td><td>Shaq<td><td><td><td>Kobe<td></tr><tr><td>Year<td>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<td>Minutes<td>FGA<td>FGA/48<td>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<td>Minutes<td>FGA<td>FGA/48</tr><tr><td>2000<td><td>3163<td>1665<td>25.2<td><td>2524<td>1183<td>22.4</tr><tr><td>2001<td><td>2924<td>1422<td>23.3<td><td>2783<td>1510<td>26.0</tr><tr><td>2002<td><td>2423<td>1229<td>24.3<td><td>3063<td>1597<td>25.0</tr></table>
It makes a lot of sense to balance the scoring between a center and a guard, because other teams would have trouble figuring out who to stop. This is the essence of the inside/outside game, which is something the Rockets should be aiming for.

 

I am just now watching the game while editing....and alltho it is causing me to take more time doing this...I have been tracking exactly how many times Yao got passed to in a position to score...I am also keeping track of how many times Yao was denied the entry pass by the defense....and how many time Yao was fouled in the act of shooting ...those possessions dont show on the stat sheet sicne it doesnt count as a attempt when they foul him before the shot.

Im tired of all this bickering and whining about Yaos touches...

Anyone that doesnt believe my numbers please feel free to watch the game tape yourself and count.

.keep in mind I am only tracking the time that Yao is on the floor....

1st Quarter
Possessions : 24
Yao's Touches : 7
Yao Fouled In The Act Of Shooting : 2
Turnover(not directly Yao related) : 1

2nd Quarter
Possessions : 17
Yao's Touches : 8
Yao Fouled : 2
Turnovers : 1
Fastbreak : 4

3rd Quarter
Possessions : 17
Yao's Touches : 4
Yao Fouled : 2
Turnover : 2
Fastbreak : 1
Yao Denied Entry by Defense : 4

4th Quarter
Possessions : 7
Yao's Touches : 4
Yao Fouled : 0
Turnover : 2
Fastbreak : 1

These are the cold, hard facts....

Yao got passed the ball 23 times out of 65 possessions.
Out of those 65 possessions, he was directly denied the entry pass by fronting or doubling at least 4 times that I saw....and that doesnt count the number of times I saw teammates holding the ball at the wing waiting for Yao to fight his way thru the defense to get there...and then having to go elsewhere cause he was taking to long to get position..I saw that at least 4 times...

Out of those 65 possessions....there were at least 6 fastbreaks(I didnt start counting those until the 2nd quarter...and I dont have the time to go back and recheak the first)

Out of those 65 possessions, there were 6 turnovers.

Keeping in mind that there are other players on the team other than Yao that we do need to go to.....I think the numbers speak for themselves.

They went to Yao much more often than I remember seeing in the last game...what killed the Rockets tonight was the hot shooting of Boston and the cold as ice shooting of the Rockets.....

 

Thank you very much R2K, you have just vindicated me!

I was telling earlier on in this thread to a poster (who shall remain nameless) that Yao was VERY involved in the offense and was getting touches, he refuted that and started throwing out subjective stats.

I knew Yao was involved a LOT in the offense, but seemingly there are some people on this board who think that if Yao doesn't get at least half of all possessions called for him, then his teammates are ignoring him.

And as I have shown through stats, Yao doesn't attempt much less than Shaq does, and if he was half as aggressive as Shaq was, he would get to the line even more often than just 6 times a game.

I think there is a lot of subjectivity on this board with people who want Yao to get all the touches, and anything less would be "his teammates ignoring him".

I think your numbers show that clearly.

As I said before, the Rockets would have definitely won tonight's game if ANY of our outside shots were going in. Boston played crappy perimeter defense and we had tons of wide open shots, but they just wouldn't go in. That Blount kid got a career game. The Rockets played crappy defense for the most part, although somehow all teh Boston stars (Pierce, Davis, and even Walker) were held in check.

It was just one of those games, no need to be frustrated by the loss and start looking for scapegoats (as is very often done after bad performances).

The team wins together and loses together. Period.

 

well tiger,

the thing is...alot of these folks look at the stats...and all they see are the number of recorded shot attempts.........which is a damn lousy way of telling how involved a player is in the offense...

Especially a post player like Yao who passes out or is mugged to prevent the shot...

Every time Yao touches the ball....he doesnt always put up a shot..sometimes he passes....sometimes he loses it.....sometimes he is fouled before the shot.....sometimes he is denied the ball by the defense....

but.....just like the last time I went thru a game and posted a play-by-play breakdown to disprove some whining...it will be ignored by the folks who it proves wrong....they cant bear to see something that doesnt agree with their views....Its sad really

 

Here're the Frequent Q&As:

Can we take boston lightly?
No. I said well before the game this is the nearest test. Well, in another thread called 'reasons to be contenders'.

Does Yao get enough touches?
Not sure.

Do teammates respect Yao on the court?
Probably not. They just don't like him that much: "The dude is simply too nice. What kind of superstar is that? So lack of confidence, and so awkward!"

Do we have an inside-outside game?
No. We're a team living or dying on the perimiter. Sometimes, we did play an outside-inside game, though.

How did we manage to win so many games?
Mostly it's through T-mac's outstanding performances. When the guy's cold and we're against tough opponents, the chances are indeed slim.

Could we have won all those games without Yao?
Not sure. But tricky as it seemed to be, it could have been the case.

Did Jeff Van Gundy do a good job as a coach?
He's trying. Being coach doesn't mean you can do whatever you think is right. You have to deal with player's egos and stuff. You have make them happy at the same time.

Could the Rockets work out a trade of Yao for somebody?
No. Dream on. No matter how many suggestions you make, under normal circumstances, the Rockets are not gonna trade him in the forseeable future. Plain and simple. Better save yourself some time.

What's hurting the rockets most right now?
Rebounding, rebounding, rebounding.

What do the rockets need to improve on to get better prepared for playoff time?
Aside from rebounding, they need to establish a true inside offensive strategy. Everybody should be trained for this sole purpose for a while and get used to it. Then when the outside shots aren't falling, they know where to go. Also, they will always know that you have something to fall back on.

How far can the rockets go come playoff time?
A prediction is a prediction. No matter who you're, you've got to prove it. You accomplish what you've accomplished.

what on earth are you talking about?
You figure out the mess.

 

Originally posted by Rockets2K [/i]

---Every time Yao touches the ball....
As you said there were about 65 possesions when Yao was on the court, and he got somehow 23 times of touches. But I have to say our guards get touch in every possesion.

----he doesnt always put up a shot..sometimes he passes....sometimes he loses it.....
Just once this game.

----sometimes he is fouled before the shot
That won't be considered as one possession change, right?

.....sometimes he is denied the ball by the defense....
If not for double-team, what's the role of our PG? There is a game plan to get Yao the ball, right?


-----but.....just like the last time I went thru a game and posted a play-by-play breakdown to disprove some whining...it will be ignored by the folks who it proves wrong....they cant bear to see something that doesnt agree with their views....Its sad really

I read your last analysist very very carefullly, but I don't have download the game video yet and you know I don't tape the game myself, so even when I want to look at the game, I have to wait for about 2 days. Then I lost the interest on the loss, which is really bad for my health. ( I don't want to make an excuse out of my busy work for that to piss you off, since you might be even busier than me. And I always appreciate your effort for the game video, which I loved so much that I don't want to lose the source ).

It is always said that we have the centerpiece of TMac and Yao, but just look at their FGAs and you will see the difference. It is too easy for TMac to shoot 20+ times, which seems like an impossible mission for Yao. If Yao is just another big role-player and people are all satisfied with his role here (especially for those senior members), that will be fine for me too since we already have Tracy Magic.

 

Man, this is an awesome post!

 

Happyricky, did you even read R2K's post that you replied to? I guess you just didn't comprehend it. Every player has a "role", but don't be f'n stupid and think that "senior members" want Yao just to be another role player. His "role" is being the star of this team along with T-Mac. R2K's post said that just because Yao's FGA aren't high doesn't mean his touches aren't high.

Anyhow, I'm just frustrated that when Yao is fronted, no one can get a pass in. I guess it's the zone D rules or something else, but man, back in the Dream days fronting Dream on the low block would lead to a sure quick pass from Drexler and Dunk +foul. Hubie Brown said that if the D is fronting, just throw the ball towards the bottom corner of the near side of the back board and let your big man go get it with his momentum going towards the hoop.

 

Originally posted by Kim
---------Happyricky, did you even read R2K's post that you replied to? I guess you just didn't comprehend it. Every player has a "role", but don't be f'n stupid and think that "senior members" want Yao just to be another role player. His "role" is being the star of this team along with T-Mac. R2K's post said that just because Yao's FGA aren't high doesn't mean his touches aren't high.

I was trying to argue with R2K that Yao's touches are still not high even with the his statement.

--------Anyhow, I'm just frustrated that when Yao is fronted, no one can get a pass in. I guess it's the zone D rules or something else, but man, back in the Dream days fronting Dream on the low block would lead to a sure quick pass from Drexler and Dunk +foul. Hubie Brown said that if the D is fronting, just throw the ball towards the bottom corner of the near side of the back board and let your big man go get it with his momentum going towards the hoop. [/B

If you remember,there is a perfect lob to Yao when he was fronted on one possession, and he was fouled when shooting the ball. However, that is the only attempt we had to beat the fronting defence ( there are some cases when yao was double teamed. ).

 

Unfortunately your cold hard facts are just wrong.

Yao was fouled 3 times (instead of 2) in the first quarter, but they were not shooting fouls.

I watched the first two quarter tape again, am not sure how you counted Yao's touches (unless you also counted him getting the ball beyond the 3 point line and then pass the ball to the guards).

I am not afraid of name calling, that's fine. All I am arguing is that the Rockets are going nowhere in the playoffs if Yao is not getting involved (not in a specific game). There is a reason that the role players have been role players in the league for god knows how many years. Clearly the Rockets roleplayers are riding the pine of their recent success and forgot their roles on the team and think that they are the stars.

Magic once made a comment that when he was playing with Jabaar, the first 10 possessions went to Jabaar with no questions asked. I think that going to your star players at the beginning of the game to set the tone is a better strategy in most scenarios, especially there is a clear mismatch that the team can take advantage of.

Yao is a wussy for sure. Even the Yao restaurant co-owner (friend of Yao's parents) believes that Yao will never become a truly great player because he is so passive, and the passive nature does not work in the NBA.