ClutchFans Game Thread: Blazers @ Rockets 1/28/2021

There is an apparent bidding war for Lowry. How much is a championship worth? Brooklyn trading for Harden increased the value of Lowry and Beal. I'm sure they will get unprotected first rounders for them, they are at least worth that much.

No, higher odds do not favor tanking. You're not factoring in the fact that the player you draft can be a bust...which is pretty likely...

Ok...and are Minny trading Kat? Is Sactown trading Fox? Zac is going to want a huge contect, he has the same problem players like Dipo have, good players but they are going to want their money and some team like Charlotte will be happy to sign them to be competitive.

Flexible to get better? Morey was ALL about flexibility lol, the reason the Westbrook trade hurt wasn't because of how Westbrook played but that it took flexibility away from us. So when it was time to get rid of Westbrook all we could do was swap him for Wall. Being flexible means maybe you can actually swing a big trade to keep Harden happy here instead of swappign Westbrook for Wall, maybe you can entice another team to give up something more with the picks you traded for Westbrook.

I think it's far more odd to tank in a year you don't even own your pick completely. You guys are willing to gut the team and take away our flexibility at a near 50/50 shot at maybe drafting a good player. Like the 'ifs' that have to break for the Rockets to make tanking worth it...is an entire list.

IF the Rockets land top 4
IF the Rockets get the right spot in the top 4
IF the Rockets pick the right guy

Rockets could tank and gut their team and STILL not get their pick. Then what?
Rockets could tank get the 4th spot (Or even 1) and still draft a guy that isn't good enough. Then what? Do it all over again? This is gambling which makes sense since we'd be participating in the lottery.

and nothing is wrong with gambling...it does become an issue though when you're trying to sell your house for one more spin.

 

@snowconeman22

 

Harden is better than both of them. Beal will probably bring in a haul because he's younger but both of them have much higher value than Lowry who's 34 years old.

Yes it does. Banking on player unhappiness, trade partners, other factors you have to account for are simply much lower than getting a high pick.

No, but tanking for them to get more picks isnt exactly bad for their situation either. Its just depends on what their management does. Those guys havent been there long, they will draft better and their teams will be better because they have franchise players.....er maybe.

Right. Okay. I see. You are correct flexibility is important. But you can keep flexibility while still tanking.

Why? What good does it do us not to tank? Gut what team? Tucker is gone, Gordon is gone, Oladipo is gone, House is gone...Nwaba is hear for 2 years, Brown is hear for one. Wall will be trade eventually and Cousins is also only hear for a year.

Yup. But there are way more IFs in your scenario though. If a super star is unhapy if C Woods becomes an all NBA player, if we can pay him, if we can pay tate, does a Superstar want to play here, will we even compete with said superstar.....its a lot more man.

Yea, do it all over again. Im not scared to fail in this regard. And if Stone is good, it wont take long.

Its not selling our house. We dont have a house to sell. Its more like a small one bed room apartment with a year left on the lease.

 

imo Silas is adjusting . Transition play only occurs after you get a stop . I like the focus on D .

I believe in analytics . But , it’s also pretty early in the season . Dipo has only been here for 5 games and wall and wood (among others) have been in and out . That’s going to effect the numbers . I’m not sure how much they can tell you , that the eye test can’t tell you right now .

at the beginning of the season I’m sure numbers didn’t look great for Nwaba , but recently he’s been much more effective .

I’m not sure we have the talent to say with certainty we should Be a top half offensive team right now . Even if we play our best offensive lineups (suggested by the numbers or theory ) that unit might not be able to get enough stops to be effective .

if dipo keeps shooting poorly I’m sure we will make an adjustment .. but defenses can adjust to us too and try to make victor a shooter .

 

Based on all the interviews with John Wall after games, it is obvious that the Rockets basically told him that this is his team. He keeps saying that he is the franchise player now and that's fine. Whatever.

My point is, Silas seems to be adamant about wanting to push the pace. You can see him on the sidelines begging Wall or Dipo to ****ing run and not slow down the game. I don't think benching Wall is an option, unless we want locker room drama. I wonder how coach gets him to speed up the game. During Mike D's tenure, he desperately wanted Harden/CP3 to speed up the game during their years together, yet he couldn't totally get them to buy in. Harden bought in Mike D's first year and last year Westbrook brought him along for the ride, although Harden was usually the one to slow the game down.

I'm not trying to compare Harden to Wall, don't care for that discussion because you and I both know who is superior. I'm just wondering, what can Silas do to get his stars to buy in. The results speak for themselves when Dipo and Wall do run. We saw it last night. Wall found Dipo a few times on the break. The start of the first quarter though, they were both resisting and rather wanted to run a half-court offense.

I know we can blame Silas, but is it really Silas's fault. I hope he does have a convo with John and Dipo and he keeps pushing those two to push the pace.

 

Sure, agree with all this.

But even in pick up games, you feed the hot hand.

Dipo was not the hot hand, Wood was.

And has been.

 

12 shots is not acceptable for Wood. Wall and Dipo need to get it through their thick heads that Wood is the future and he is damn ****ing efficient at scoring. They need to figure out a way to get Wood the ball, especially when he is in the paint area where he shoots 80% from!! It's frustrating.

 

Denver didn't benefit from tanking. They got the #7 pick from NY in the Carmelo trade. Denver's pick went to Toronto. If Denver had the best record in the league they still have would have gotten Murray. They weren't trying to lose, it wasn't to their benefit.

Tanking is fine, but you can't necessarily force it. OKC should probably tank but they can't. If we controlled our picks I would agree with you that tanking would be fine. Since we don't control our picks through 2026 our better option is to build a deep team that is attractive to disgruntled stars, ala Clippers. And all the while we need to hope that Brooklyn sucks so that we have trade capital. Tanking isn't the best option when it's a coin flip to have the pick go to OKC. Would you say tanking is still the best option if the pick was only top 1 protected? A 14% chance at the #1 pick is still better than a 0% chance, right?

 

The difference between Silas and D'Antoni is vast.

Silas maybe more likeable but he is not as proven as D'Antoni with his revolutionary SSOL Suns.

Secondly, D'Antoni adjusts to his personnel much quicker and he gets them to buy in.

Rockets played fast D'Antoni's first season, even convinced Harden that he would be great at PG. So Rockets were top 5 in pace.

2nd season, he recognized that CP3 could not play that fast and be as effective so he went the completely the other direction and Rockets became one of the slowest paced teams.

Rockets ramped up their pace last season when MDA recognized Russ strength in this area. Mike got Harden to buy in because Harden trusted him due to his proven past production.

Wall, Dipo and Boogie run these Rockets, make no mistake about this. Silas empowered them from the start and now he is struggling to be heard because they are vets who have won without him.

As long as Silas is positive and supportive, they will not bite the hand that gave them so much leash.

Silas would have been better off if Rockets traded away most of vets for young players like Wood and/or rugged role players like EGo, Tuck, Nwaba who really do play team ball, not just talk about it.

Or if he would have been able to develop relationship and trust with Harden. Harden has incredibly high BB IQ and would have reigned in some of the selfish play of the former stars.

But I believe another factor in Harden leaving was that lockerroom had already become toxic for him, some of that due to his own behavior.

 

It really doesn't have much to do with Harden and how he compares to Lowry/Beal but more what Lowry and Beal could offer a team like the Clippers or 6ers that want to add as much talent as possible to beat the Lakers/ Nets

Lowry can still net a young asset or a #1 pick, especially if teams are indeed in a bidding war over him.

I'm not sure where you're getting that these players will definitely be gone. All of the insiders here on this board say that the team isn't tanking, so you're conclusion that ______ will be gone just doesn't have much merit to it for me. Of course the Rockets are open to dealing these players but that is vastly different than the firesale you're imagining here.

A superstar is always unhappy in the NBA. Every single year. Multiple times a year actually. That's a bet you can bank on. I got the timer on KAT next before he wants out....

And also, all these 'IFs' you say are for my method ALSO apply to your tanking strategy. IF Cade becomes an all NBA Player, IF was can pay him, IF someone wants to play with him...it's the same thing for yours too but MINES cuts out the if's of losing in the draft and cuts out the risk of creating a toxic environment and a team no one wants to play for.

 

So....Carmelo, who they tanked to get, got them that draft pick?

We control our picks like every other year I believe. Next year we have our pick. All the draft capital from the Nets depends on how competent they are as an organization so we'll see. See, that's thing about the Clippers, Kawhi wanted to go to LA. PG wanted to go to LA. We arent those LA. I guess...we could wait on Dearron Fox, but who knows whats happening with that situation. If we could do it that way, im for it but I dont see it happening for us like that. That's just my opinion, i would be ecstatic to be wrong. Or even that Deaaron is good enough. I like him a lot though. I dont want try to be those teams. I want to try and be like Dallas and GS...and like the Sixers(to a smaller extent). A coin flip is still pretty good odds to me to be fair haha. With a 14% chance........ehh probably not. but 52>14.

 

pretty simple, thank you!
btw look at the phoenix, they tanked and were pretty pretty bad for years..... for what?
Only to be 100% irrelevant now...or should i say mediocre lolololol

 

BRILLIANT
Btw you forgot to add ifs of injury and reinjury

 

And that's the ultimate if that can destroy any season or derail any career. I think you always bring up a good point, we have a #1 pick on our team!

The team we just beat had a #3 pick, Kanter!

The team we play next has also a #1 pick in Lonzo Ball!

The idea that if you just tank and pick the next _____ is risky! Riskier now that the odds in the lottery are all over the place. You can finish 10th worse and STILL have a good shot at getting in the top 5.

 

He's not netting a lottery pick though.

Why would we keep Tucker, we've been trying to trade Gordon for awhile, and why would we keep Oladipo? Its common sense. Why would we resign Nwaba at 29 years old. Maybe we resign Brown...but thats not a needle mover. Tell me what that does for us to keep these players? It does nothing.

And KAT would want to come here because???? And we have anything enticing to give besides draft capital because? And most importantly you would want KAT to come here because??? And any other superstar wanting to come here because????

Odds are higher there than banking a superstar wants to come here. Odds are higher there that we can pay him as that will be his first big contract and we have the most to offer. My ifs make more sense, your ifs rely on so many different moving parts. No your risk assumes that anything bad can and will happen if we decide to tank. You assume we will be toxic when that isnt the case. You are also more comfortable having an environment that never wins a championship because of something that might be worse.

 

Oh man, Anthony Davis, Lebron, Murray, Curry, Tim Duncan, Wade, HAKEEM JORDON.....mine is better company.

 

Been saying it.

#teamredemption

 

the “52%” number is deceiving imo

because it all comes down to what teams are in play

couple years ago fakers being in the mix readjusted the odds at the top of course

so we could have the fourth worst record but still end up on the outside because, for instance, dallas missed the playoffs and silver thinks it will be good for the league to get luka a talented running mate

at the end of the day, odds in a rigged league don’t mean jackshhit

 

Rockets offense has a LOOOONG way to go to just being average.

 

thank you... btw OKC to me is an ultimate warning against tanking... drafted 3 MVPs in a row
didnt win nothing
its a simplification but it seems to me you either know your basketball or dont

if you know basketball, you know how to recognise talent, how to draft, develop, how to win, then you dont need lotery picks.... kawhi giannis butler draymond jokic klay curry all non loto picks

and if you dont know basketball no amount of lotery picks will save you....if you dont know basketball then youll either miss or ruin those high pick players by not developing them and immersing them in losing culture and become a non stop mediocre or even bottom of the league developing players only to be taken away in their prime by the big teams