[Clutchfans] Dwight: Defensive woes "starts on the perimeter"

For me , Parsons was worse than Harden , His defense was atrocious , he was torched by Rudy Gay. I'am not so sure that he is the right piece for this team. When his contract will be up and we sign him then he will not be so attractive. It's just my opinion. In the perimeter, everyone was lost when they defended. A lot of times , JH tried but stuck through screens . I didn't see him losing his opponent because he was seeing the ball. But because he couldn't chase him through screens and i don't think that this will get better. I prefer a scorer off the bench and wing lock down defender than Parsons.

p.s. I am sorry if i made editorial errors.

 

When Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming was here how many minutes did they log when we all knew they were dealing with injures. Therefore McHale is not the only Coach that's guilty of over using his injured star/s. JVG and Aldeman did it with both Tracy and Yao. Coach Tib over there in CHi-town just lost his franchise player again. The Lakers just lost Kobe Bryant again. Both of those players were logging heavy minutes. OKC just lost Westbrook who was logging heavy minute. I can go all the way back to the 90's if you would like pimpn. Superstar/Franchise players will always log heavy minutes. Coach Pop is the only Coach that I know of that will cut those minutes down.

These Coaches are trying to make a run for the playoff's. They will ride the brakes off their stud players who are making the big bucks. Harden and Howard they figure are putting butts in the yota. That is why they are the franchise players.

I do however agree that McHale needs to utilize his bench more. The 8 man rotation isnt working. But we have two key rotational players injured, Bev and Asik. ( Even though I don't think Asik is really injured). Dmo and Brewer should be utilized in the rotation more since those two players are out. But something must be wrong somewhere because Mchale doesn't trust either one of those players.

 

I will respectfully disagree. You can teach people who are trying. You can only do so much for someone who is not interested.

Still, I would like to remind everyone that Harden is probably playing through injury still.

 

Happy New Year, peoples!
Way to ring in 2014, huh?

Just wanted to add some perspective, from a guy who watched a good defensive Houston Rockets team back in the early-to-mid-1990s...

...when there was a certain all-league center in the middle of that defense, and a particularly wily coach who made a pretty shrewd (and ultimately fairly simple) decision about what it takes to play good defense against an NBA team...

Rudy Tomjonovich was never anybody's idea of a defensive stopper in his playing days. I would have imagined that he would have been the last person to devise a defensive strategy that was not only effective, but one that everybody on the team could adjust and adapt to in fairly short order.

Tomjonovich would often say that coaches, fans, media...all would fall in love with the "..play defense..." and "...play harder on defense..." cry. Defense seems to be the one area of the game where you could be excused from having a planned result or a predetermined outcome, as long as you look like you're giving a damn about it. You don’t need to understand things like defensive rotations or schemes to be able to tell if a guy is trying to stop the player in front of him from scoring. Tomjonovich often said that perspective didn’t make sense. You don’t just tell a player to “play good defense” or “give more effort on defense” and think that would solve a team’s defensive struggles, or even an individual player’s struggles. You give the team a set of guidelines to follow, and make sure that everybody does what they need to do. The effort has to have a purpose. Not simply something as vaguely broad as “..playing harder…” or “…giving more effort…”

But professional sports are about results, at the end of the day. And simply gauging effort (whether it's good effort or poor effort), isn't the best way to go about improving a very poor defensive team that the Rockets currently have.

You have to do that with a particular plan in mind of what good defense is for your team and how you go about making that happen with the personnel on hand. Not every team will play defense the same way, because every team’s make-up is different. But based on the personnel, you should be able to find out what you do well defensively as a team a bit easier that you may be able to offensively.

It’s the easiest thing (and in this case, probably the most obvious thing) to call out a player or five who give the impression of dogging it on the defensive side. And starting with individual responsibility among the players (particularly your best players) is as good a place to plant that flag as any. Nothing wrong with that.

But at some point, there has to be as much thinking going on as there is (or isn’t) doing for defense to improve and become consistent, if not dominant.

I find myself agreeing with what JayGoogle has been saying in this thread about the team’s defense, myself. But it is important to hold to account your “best” player in James Harden if there’s going to be any improvement made. Most of us tend to care more about what something looks like than what it actually is, anyway, so it’s best to get the easiest stuff taken care of first.

Kevin McHale has said on more than one occasion that the team does have defensive principles that everybody is aware of and is expected to adhere to. What those principles are, are anybody’s guess at this point.

Rudy Tomjonavich knew what kind of defensive player Hakeem Olajuwon was. Olajuwon’s range, athleticism, instinct and effort was phenomenal. The best defense to employ was one where the guards and wings forced their player to the baseline if possible. This cut off passing angles and gave Hakeem time to recover to the basket and deter any penetration. Olajuwon also excelled at smothering guards in pick-and-roll situations long enough for guards to recover to their player. Pretty simple strategy, really. Not a lot of x and o’s involved (since Rudy T wasn’t a much of a chalkboard coach anyway), but it did rely on the players understanding what they wanted the opposing offense to do.
It was a lot like forcing double-teams on great players in order to get them to move the ball to somebody who was deliberately left open, because that’s where you want the shot to come from. The Spurs always concede mid-range jumpshots to teams. They aren’t going to stop everything and they don’t try to. But the do know what they’re going to give you before they toss the ball up at the start of the game.

I wonder, as great of an athlete as Dwight Howard is, if he has the ability to defend as far away from the basket as Hakeem could, if only briefly. The answer’s no, obviously, but that’s not the point. The point is that there doesn’t seem to be a point to the defense the Rockets are trying to play.

What are they trying to stop from happening on every play first?
How do you play the pick and roll with Howard?
Where do you send the ballhandler?
Who’s ready to help Howard when he steps up to smother the ball?

Is there even a plan, as Kevin McHale says there is?
And if there is, why the devil is nobody following it?

Maybe you do make an example out of James Harden with a benching and a chewing out in front of the cameras. Most of us would get a warm and fuzzy feeling if we saw that. And it wouldn’t necessarily be unwarranted. Your best players have to set the standard on both sides of the ball. Those guys have to understand what the team is trying to do and make sure that everybody (themselves included) is owning up to that.

Harden’s young and maybe still acclimating himself to the demands of being a “franchise” player. Now is as a good a time as any to end the honeymoon with him about his on-court responsibility.

Wouldn’t hurt to get the roster settled (moving Omer Asik if you can’t play him) either.
But as long as we all know what we’re looking at…

…I think maybe we all need to know what it is we need to be looking FOR…

 

Fixed.

 

Thank you.

Figured I missed a spot...:grin:

 

What this says to me is our guys are tired by the 4th qtr and the defense suffers. May not be the players on the floor so much as how much the bench can spell them earlier in the game.

Of course, Garcia doesn't have this excuse so maybe my theory is bad. Maybe instead, its every guy thinking "score" to the exclusion of all else.

 

yea.. definitely looks like it.

Either stop playing them so much or the Rockets franchise needs to get trainers who specialize in endurance and conditioning..

 

I have watched every game this year and you and I must be looking at different players. My observations coincide with the box score. Yours are discordant with the box score. The onus is on you to ex[lain your discrepent data other than saying don't look at the data that contradicts me.

 

I am wondering this too. It would be nice to see stats on how many consecutive minutes players play and when they play them; basically full rotation data.

I looked at other top players for a comparison:

Defensive rating (Net rating) by period
Iggy:
1P:95.9 (28.0)
2P:87.5 (24.3)
3P:97.8 (2.4)
4P:90 (9.4)

Durant:
1P:97.1 (9.0)
2P:100 (11.3)
3P:98.4 (4.5)
4P:101.1 (11.8)

These guys are far more consistent defenders through out the game. The same holds true for their entire teams.

Here are a couple of point guards:

Tony Parker:
1P:94.9 (6.9)
2P:98.9 (11.1)
3P:102.2 (1.3)
4P:101.7 (15.5)

Chris Paul:
1P:102.4 (2.7)
2P:109 (0.1)
3P:90.5 (14.3)
4P:108.4 (8.6)

Defensive rating (Net rating) by period:
Lin:
1P:102 (6.0)
2P:102.7 (2.4)
3P:98.1 (2.7)
4P:116.1 (1.1)

Harden:
1P:97.6 (10.5)
2P:105 (4.7)
3P:97.1 (7.5)
4P:111.1 (6.9)

Beverley:
1P:93.3 (16.5)
2P:92.6 (14.2)
3P:102.7 (7.8)
4P:113.9 (-12 !!!)

The sample size isn't big enough to just look at games since Beverley broke his hand. That data includes some fairly lopsided games during a tough stretch in the schedule. But it isn't flattering to Harden (-24.7 NetRtg in 2P and 26.2 NetRtg in 4P)or Lin (-14.1 NetRtg in 3P and 22.1 NetRtg in 4P).

Here are the Rockets rankings for PACE:

Overall: 7th (OKC is 5th)
1P:14th (OKC is 5th)
2P:5th (OKC is 13th)
3P:11th (OKC is 2nd)
4P:6th (OKC is 5th)

Again, all stats come from stats.nba.com. There you can compare teams and players on the same screen, including comparing just two individual players head to head.

 

seem to be still allowing the dribbler and the pnr to the middle with no effort to channel to baseline......

effort is poor
scheme is even worse (if it even exists)

 

Perimeter defense has been horrible going all the way back to last year.

Defensive ratings of individuals has no bearing in this topic. Team defense means a group of 5 working together. Understanding where to move, when to help each other etc.

Our best perimeter defender can't get off of the bench.

Just because you get beat, it doesn't mean your defense is bad. Look at the big picture please.

 

Individual ratings do matter and have everything to do with this thread in which Howard stated the defensive issues start on the perimeter.. They can offer insight into the players who appear to most contribute to the team effort.

By and large, the team defensive ratings correspond to the individual ratings within lineup combinations and with the theory that the team style, combined with the rotation, has our players winded by the 4th. Moreover, video evidence, actually looking at the shot attempts of perimeter players, corresponds to the individual ratings. Stats.nba.com allows us to look at video of every opposing team's FGA. We can see who is funneling guys to the shot blocker. Who is just getting best off the dribble, who is rotating, etc. And again, the visual evidence corresponds to the individual ratings.

When you get beat often your are bad. Team defense can't cover for you. A player's defensive footwork can be a signal of where he wanted to funnel the defender. The Rockets just don't control the direction of the ball handler. These guys are just getting where they want to go.

To make matters worse, since the communication is bad, the scheme so misunderstood by the players, when Howard chases the shot block, if Jones isn't there, the rotations fall apart. Asik is a better team defender because he takes fewer risks, is solid against the PnR and is generally gets back to the lane to play goalie faster than Howard who goes out to contest shots.

I am actually surprised to see Harden doesn't rate super horribly, given his many mental lapses. But the numbers show, that Harden is not balancing his scoring with his defense. He is the closer and he pretty much stops defending once he goes to closing mode. I suspect he needs his minutes reduced or he needs to improve his conditioning.

 

All big problem started out small. I've been ranting for the longest about the little problems we were having and now it just blew up on the team. Here are the problems I've noticed for the last month:

1. Our defense is one size fits all. We never game planned or made major adjustments for opposition strengths and weaknesses. We never trapped and never aggressively attacked ball handler at perimeter. When playing against Clippers, just double team and force the ball out of CP3's hand. How difficult is it to understand you can't guarding him successfully 1-on-1 and, if you disrupt CP3's flow, you stop Clippers offense? Instead we let him do whatever he wanted and wrecked havoc into our defense. Same with Dirk. You place a big body on him and contest his shots! Instead we had Brook and Lin guarding him during crucial minutes. How could that happen?

2. For a stretch of games, players switched on any sign of screens. Switch defense is lazy defense. We often ended up way too many mismatches, and good opposition coaches fully exposed them time and time again.

3. We have different sets of PnR defense with whoever was at center. Asik hedged but Dwight iced. This only confused our perimeter defenders and a major cause of miscommunication and the breakdown of our defense.

4. Last year, perimeter defenders overplayed the center court and funneled the ball handler to the baseline. This year, they let opposition dictated the point of attack because they have the best shot blocker in the paint! What's so ironic about it is Lakers thought the same thing last season. They had the exact same perimeter problem as Rockets do. The incompetent of our coaching staff hadn't learned anything from Lakers last year.

When Magic had Dwight, they were always among top of the league in defense. Magic had Jameer, Bass, Hedo, Anderson, Rashard, and Riddick. Which of those players will change our defensive woes we are having? The answer is none! None of them were known to be defensive specialists or good at perimeter defense but they had great defensive plans/schemes under SVG and worked well as a team.

I don't believe our defense will all of sudden become top of the league by adding a perimeter defender. One player might improve our defense but won't be a game changer. The problem lies in our coaching staff and their understanding of defense. They are just too incompetent for the job.

 

Individuals ratings mean something but only in particular contexts.

I player can have horrible stance or positions but improve their defensive ratings buy using athleticism to get steals and cover for the fundamental flaws.

Looking at the stats won't show you how to improve, where to focus your teaching points etc.

Forget stats and watch James Harden. When the ball is with his man and stationary he can lock in and stop most guys. However, get him 2 or 3 passes away. Stats can identify a problem but they don't lead to a solution with defense.

The same problems Harden has now are the same problems he had in OKC.

Most of your points are spot on, I don't feel the stats show in-depth what is really going wrong on that end.

If I am planning against Harden I would not look at his stats I would just watch him play.

So I would put his man on the weakside and run an action on the strong side, when Harden losses his man from focusing on the ball either have his player cut backdoor or swing the ball to his man who drives as soon as he gets the ball. Harden will close out with his knees extended meaning he cannot move laterally quick enough to stop his man.

You don't need a stat to see this fundamental flaw in his defense and be able to exploit it.

 

I already stated we had to watch video. I have even linked you folks to the nba video store. Don't try to tell me how to use the numbers.

The stats give us an idea of where to look. They check our assumptions. We need the stat so we can focus the discussion. I never argued they could be used to focus teaching points. But they can be used to direct the conversation.

How many Lin fanboys have responded to my post? See how I shut that **** down? That is the power of the numbers. Now we, you, me, others, can have an adult conversation about basketball without some hero worshipper coming in to say "you are wrong" and spew some BS. That is what the stats do.

Again, we use the numbers to check our assumptions. Even the hardest core analytics gurus state this. Anything beyond that requires video evidence and eye ball test.

 

Yep Lin's Defense has been so bad lately lmao

12/25

Tony Parker - All Nba PG, Finals MVP, All Star, NBA champion, Future HOFer

6 points, 3-11, 27% FG

12/26 on a back to back

Mike Conley - All D Team, One of the top PGs in the NBA

11 points, 4-14, 28% FG

12/28 3rd game in 4 nights

Jrue Holiday - All Star, One of the top PGs in the NBA

3 points, 1-9, 11% FG


Lin basically shut down 3 of the top PGs in the NBA in 3 games in 4 nights.

The last game

Isiah Thomas played OK

6-17, 35% FG but he didn't exactly dominate shooting 35%

 

That's what happens when you have a subpar coach. He can't handle his superstars, he doesn't know how to coach young guys, he doesn't have any sets(wtf?), he doesn't know how long to play James or Chandler. It's no coincidence Harden broke down after the all-star last year. Heavy minutes will do that to you and he's already missed several this year. Count on his missing at least 10 games a year as long as Mchale uses him that way.