ClutchCity.net Game Thread: Sonics @ Rockets 11/5/2002

first off, you did blame Rudy for not switching defenses. Doesn't matter. I don't care that much. But you did say it.

As for your backseat coaching, Payton was killing our man and our double teams, too. As for the zone, why do you look at it as "working on your zone." It is not practice in the 3rd Q. They are calling timeouts to show what the opps are doing and how to adjust. You don't make corrections by calling out defenses alone; you still have to make corrections by telling the team what is hitting them, and what to look for.

The timeouts weren't about fundamental positioning. You really look at it that way??

 

Well, with the way you are using "blameing", I guess it would be pretty difficult to express a negative opinion about an individual or team on the BBS without casting blame. I'm sure we could dig up posts of you "blameing" by this definition.

In the third quarter the Rockets were getting killed running the zone. Yes, Payton did eat our man defense too, but it obviously wasn't as detrimental as the zone in the 3rd quarter. As you stated, they called like 3 or 4 timeouts to make adjustments and to point out what was going wrong. This sure sound a lot like "working on the zone" to me.

Bottom line is that I feel that Rudy went with the zone too long. The Sonics were gettting open shot after open shot, and the game was being put more and more out of reach. Once you are down by 12-14 points you have to just scrap the zone for the night. Don't wait until 22 points down.

 

timeouts are more about strategy than fundamentals...no? Isn't that what timeouts are about in games more often than not?

Anyhow, he not only called a bunch of timeouts, but I saw two zones. He changed from 3-2 to a 2-3.

As for blaming...if you want to say you weren't blaming but just critiquing and analyzing I certainly have to accept that. I apologize if I came off sounding like making you into a Rudy basher...but I did speak kindly of your analysis in my first comment to your..correct??

I'm always very happy to break down the game like you first offered.

 

HP,

I respect your bball diagnostic abilites so I wanna ask you a straight up question.

Gary Payton shot 33% from the field last night. Now whether its because he had an off night or because of our defense, is debatable of course. At times, if not most of the time, I felt the guy that was guarding him, was playing him tight. It seemed that once he drove on us, 1 or 2 of the other 4 defenders on our team, who were playing zone, seemed more eager to collapse on him, which of course, is one of the advantages of playing a zone in the first place. As a result of Payton's quick passes and their player's quick releases, the defenders that collapsed could not recover in time to legtimately contest the shot. As stated by others today, Payton picked apart our zone.

My question is this: Based on what I just said, and assuming how I saw and how I described it was actually what happened, why dont you drop the zone, play man to man on the rest of their players (assuming Seattle starts running guys of PNRs and screens as an adjustment to our man to man,4 on 4, our guys, as a whole, had the quickness advantage and would be better adept at chasing their guys off screens and picks than they would at responding to Payton's passing to wide open men who they had dropped off of to contain Payton in the lane) and loosen up our perimeter defense on Payton and let him beat us from the outside with his shooting (which might be considered beneficial to us considering his off night shooting)?

The way I see it, this somewhat negates Payton's passing, lessens the effect he has with regards to making his teamates better, forces him to carry the scoring load more than he is used to, and as a whole, disrupts their offense, preventing it from getting into a rhythm passing wise.

 

Amen!

Remember when Hakeem use to miss his shots (1995)?
As Hakeem's game sunk, so did the Rockets (Hakeem during a bad
shooting night).

If our opponents played man-on-man, they took away our three point
threat. So, if Hakeem went ISO, and missed his shots. We lost.

That's the problem with trying to "take the game over." You have to
pick your time to do that. Payton, examines his options. Then, he takes
the one with the highest probability of scoring, even if he's NOT the one
that makes the score.

Payton goes ISO when all other options are taken away.

Francis goes ISO because it's his ONLY option. He still does not know how
to get his teammates involved.

 

Very true about Hakeem. I mean, more often than not, Hakeem is going to destroy you one on one. But even great players have off shooting nights. Im not a big fan of letting great players kill you with numerous aspects of their games. Id rather take my chances and let them prove they can beat you the whole game in only one way, their scoring. More often than not, they can. But why not take your chances by making that player one dimensional instead of multi-facited?

In the end, thats what makes great players and great teams great. No matter what you do, more often than not, you are going to lose.

 

codell,

Aside from the fact I have you on my Ignore List... (it's a bet thing)

I did not see a question posted in DavidS quoted reply of yours. What is your question...and see if you can get DavidS to quote it again.

 

LOL!! Here it is... From DavidS, in care of Codell...

 

Im on his ignore list? .....damn it ...i could have been posting new threads this whole time without him seeing

 

LOL

So, would any Colin Pine wannabe's out there care to translate codell's question through DavidS's quote. I'm still not quite understanding the question.

I could give the Bull Durham response...

"Yes, clever observation. The key is we saw that and considered various options for every play. We came to play for every possession. Sometimes you take the good with the bad, and sometime you drink champagne. But in the end, all that matters is taking a shower with other naked men. If it includes champagne or Coke, doesn't matter, because we are here for the love of the game.

 

Too much fluff in my original post. My legal letter writing abilities do me in once again.

Rephrase.

Why not drop the zone we were playing in the 3rd quarter, play man to man on their wing players, and have whoever is guarding Payton, back off, prevent him from driving (1 man zone), and let him try and beat us with his shooting instead of his passing?

 

Damn! I feel like an underappreciated secretary!!!

 

Yep. Payton isn't as efficient as Barry or Lewis with open looks--I'd rather have him try to beat you scoring.

Though Payton got some points, San Antonio killed that Sonics offense in the playoffs by simply playing man to man and not allowing easy looks to their other shooters. It was a shame we got away from that yesterday.

 

HeyP --

Lol! If only there were some way....and we could find a way to kidnap, er, convince Joe...

 

codell,

did you really suggest to back off Payton. That team had us so spread out with their 5 shooters, in man. What would Payton do if you backed off him on the wing, and your teammates were spread out guarding the arc.

Would Payton shoot, or would Payton take that space you gave him and back you in, and do his spin move baseline or cut across the lane for an 8 footer. Remember, their center was nailing shots, too. All you are really suggesting is to play man. Fine. But I don't agree with your description of man being anything special, if even healthy.

Stone Cold Hakeem,

Did you notice that we registered in sequence? Talk about maintaining a BBS equilibrium of Mobley fans....hehe.

 

I think the Hornets found the answer to Sonics. They just let Gary to shoot his lights out and did let anyone have any open shots. Davis did a good job on GP and his assist cut in half. I think Rox paid too much focus on GP that night and Hawkins did a good job putting pressure on GP.

 

Im not advocating that its anything special. Only as a way to keep him from making his teamates better and forcing him to carry more of an offensive load.

In that, you reduce Payton to a role similar to Francis, in that he might score alot of points but hes not able to make his teamates as good as he would with his passing if you play a zone againt him. If Payton has to carry his team in the scoring department and Francis has to carry ours in the same fashion like he has been, who has the advantage?

In reality, Payton can probably beat you with his scoring as well as his passing. Would you rather Payton try and beat you with his scoring or with his passing? Which is the lesser of the two evils?