ClutchCity.net Game Thread: Sonics @ Rockets 11/5/2002

The Sonics won because Payton created easy shots for his teammates in the 3rd quarter. Until Francis learns to pass when his teammates are open (and not when he's about to be trapped), the Rockets will never win against a good team.

 

<blockQUOTE><hr>Originally posted by Title99
That 3rd quarter was terrible. I don't know what Rudy was thinking out there. The Rockets zone defense was getting killed, but for some unknown reason Rudy stuck with it.<hr></blockQUOTE>
Rudy did call 3 or 4 timeouts in like 6 minutes. Maybe they were discussing not running the zone correctly. Or they were pointing out to the players how Payton was picking it apart. Payton was picking apart everything, zones and man. Rudy ran everything against him.

The flurry of timeouts lends me to believe that Rudy and the coaches saw exactly what Payton was doing and were trying to get corrections out of the team. Rudy can call zone or man, but the players still have to see the passing lanes and the picks to execute.

I saw a 3-2 zone, with Ming out top, and I saw a 2-3 zone, with a smaller lineup. I just don't see how anyone can come away blaming a coach for giving Payton different looks and using timeouts to try to help his players know what is happening.

Title99: I like your critical comments about the zone. At least we are talking about what happened, but why see something like that and mention it, and turn it into someone to blame.

This blame game boggles my mind.

This BBS is really getting to be no fun...I swear.

"I blame this."
"I blame that."
"No, it is always this to blame, and until that changes, no other blame matters."

Why not, "sheeesh, Payton had an frigging answer to everything, and Seattle is an awesome shooting team."

personally, I have fun watching everything, especially any new learning. I have fun seeing our zones and seeing the players not react properly or react properly. I have fun watching basketball with good or bad. The growth. Can Francis eventually do this? Can Rudy convince the players to execute this? Where are the first signs? What are the opponents answers to our success? Can we react to that?

NBA Action: Fantastic!!!

 

I blame Payton for not being traded already

 

It wasn't to be. Seattle was on fire, Gary had a career night. We lost. It's 1 out of 82...

Positives:

Eddie Griffin. Steve Francis. Cuttino. They didn't give up. Cato. Rice finally got to play. Moochie.

Negatives:

Yao Ming - totally lost out there. Shawn Bradley II.

 

I'm with you heypee...

I'm a long time reader of the BBS and only post when necessary... Seattle has a better TEAM than the Rockets... Watching the Sonics and Payton, they were playing as a team and not individuals (in the 3rd). Seems to me once we lose the lead, that’s when the guards start trying to take things "in there own hands" and stop relying on others. I still feel that the Rockets still have a long way to go but it’s still early in the season. Once the Rockets get Mo Taylor back and actually COMMIT to the so called "motion" offence and play TEAM ball, we will be hard to beat!

 

raww,

just a small point: but, Rudy dispells any notion of the offense being called "motion." Motion is different that what we are trying to accomplish. Payton kinda is a great example of that.

Payton proves that you can dominate the ball via dribbling and still run a team game. He and Barry run specific plays and counter plays, but that is not motion. How often do we see Payton dribble down to a low post entry and initiate the offense from there. That's not motion. It looked like a very well-timed offense, but motion often does not see one guy get that many assists. Witness Bibby's apg drop in half last year.

What Payton does so well is slows down the game in his mind. He sees it so much better than Francis.

That said, this game is another example of how much a center who can shoot helps spread the defense. Cato hurts our ability to spread the defense like Seattle can. We need Yao to wake-up sooo bad, and we need Griffin to get stronger on defense so we can got with Mo and Griff together at times. Our offensive personnel with forever allow the defenses to cheat as long as Cato gets this many minutes.

What I like to watch is how much the opposing offense spread our defense versus our offense spreading theirs. Against Toronto, our defense won that game in the 3rd because we packed it in and owned the passing lanes. This game the Seattle offense fielded 5 shooters (not just marginal shooters, but good to great shooters). Defense is tougher when you get spread further apart, no matter what you play. By contrast, we were forced to go small (EG, KT, Hawk) when Yao's 3-2 zone was ineffective, and Cato's defense was also rendered ineffective.

Going with 3 forwards just fed into Seattles game. It might have worked better if Rice and MoT could have been tested, too. c'est la vie

 

That 77% shooting in the third, triggered by great play by Payton, was devastating. I particularly was glad to see that we never gave up, we tried hard to win.

There were a lot of positives in this game and it will be a great learning experience for a team that needs that. I am really surprised how well seattle looks so far. Gary is on a mission... I mean contract year...

 

Im trying to keep in mind that this was only the 4th game of the season. Im having a real hard time not questioning the Yao pick at this point though. I know I know who else would we have picked that could have helped our team more? But the guy is totally lost out there...and the speed of the NBA game is making him look slow and uncoordinated. Ive seen rebounds go right through his hands and bounce off his thighs. And most of the time, he doesnt rebound at all. Hes 7'6"! I dont really care how sweet a jump shot he has...I mean that was the attraction with Jason Collier. What worries me most is that he seems to get manhandled on a nightly basis. I mean he flat out gets worked over. The only good signs I have seen were two nice offensive moves in the Raptors game. I would hope for much more out of a #1 pick with all of these highly touted skills, playing experience, and the obvious height advantage. I can only hope that he will get MUCH MUCH better as the year goes on. If not...the comparisons to Shawn Bradley may actually be selling Shawn short. I have to admit, I was never fully sold on the pick, but now more than ever I dont think Yao will ever be a dominant center. Now I just hope he can eventually become a decent center.

 

Totally agree Heypee... but whatever "new" offence the Rockets are running, I just don't feel that some of the players are committed to it. I was really impressed with Seattle last night, the way they passed the ball, the way they shot (lights out). I thought to myself, "man, now that’s the way you play basketball! That’s the way the Rockets SHOULD PLAY!" I don't remember ANYONE on Seattle trying to force anything. No one tried to go outside there game. If we can learn just that, that would make us a better team all around! Hopefully they learned something from this loss. I know I did...

 

Steve Francis could learn to play the way Payton played and we would be a much better team.

Forget arguing, hating etc. The truth is Payton played a dominating game, he was the center of the offense, he made great decisions executing their offense, he involved his team in the flow getting them wide open looks, he passed well and scored in the flow and at the center of the offense.

Everything ran through Payton and he won the game for the Sonics.

Steve is just as good a talent.

Time will tell if he will become the player Payton is.

I hope he improves because I am not interested in him becoming a MVP if we never win another championship while he is a Rocket.

John Lucas should have never written MVP on the paper he showed Francis.

It should of said "Ring"


__________________

 

They will play that tape for years...

Remember though, they played as a TEAM, and we have had little time to get all our players together.

Nachbar must be hurt;

Rice just came back;

KT just came back;

Mooch just came back;

Yao Ming looks like he still is in China;

TMo is still out;

We don't have MT yet...

Not excuses for losing, but these will be positives and we need some time to get people playing together.

 

HP, RR, yall are right, we shouldn't get overly excited after this game and it will take time, unfortunatley even years possibly.

But come on, I'm watching these games and last night when you see Steve and Cat doing it over and over again, it starts getting to you. It starts penetrating inside of your being and just annoying the hell out of you. You can't believe that Steve can't see what Payton is doing on the other end and try to pass the ball EARLY instead of dribbling it out until 10 ticks are left on the shot clock. You can't believe that Rudy doesn't tell Steve "PASS THE BALL". It is really frustrating to watch your team as talented as it is, keep making the same mistake over and over and over and over and over again. You feel so helpless and pissed off at your team.

I guess this is the life of a Rox fan in 2002.

MVP was definitely not what Steve needed to see from Lucas, he is not ready for that. Of course he will be and can be, but telling him that right now doesn't make him confident, it makes him arrogant. That is the arrogance that is making him think he has to do everything by himself and not trust anyone other than Cat or Moochie with the ball.

Good stuff though is that whenever Payton matches up against us, you know exactly what he is thinking. I am playing against the punk that thinks he is better than me and i'm gonna light his ass up. I'm sure its not hate filled, heh, but yall know what I mean. This is good because I think Steve will eventually learn from these games, specifically against Payton and the Sonics. It will definitely improve him eventually.

Had to get it off my chest. Looking forward to dessimating, humiliating, and crushing the Warriors.

 

EG didn't do anything? Who else was going to do anything? KT tried. Obviously he is still struggling with the thumb. The Rockets got crushed when Steve went out in the third. We just don't have a lot of other options right now. We will, yao Ming, MT, KT, TMo, Rice, Boki... We just don't have them (fully) right now. No excuses, Seattle is a hot team that shot lights out on a career night by Payton. We're 2-2. 78 games left. GS Saturday. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. It's not a train!

 

I didn't like the lineup that Rudy placed on the court in the 4th quarter.But I hope the Rockets can learn from this game.

 

Aight...Im really sick of the Steve haters in here. He thourougly outclassed Payton tonight....Payton was 7 for 21 and was dishing to wide open shooters for assists. Steve had 33 pts, 11 boards, and 9 dimes(While in foul trouble in the 3rd). Its simple folks...The Rockets players arent that good...and DEFINITELY not better than some of you think they are.

Lets break it down......

Cuttino=He is not one of the top 10 SG in the League?
Kobe, TMAC, Pierce, Houston, Mashburn, Houston, Ray Allen. Iverson, Finley, Carter, Christie/Peja/Hedo, Bonzi, Stackhouse, MJ, Eddie Jones, Rip Hamilton(Ok I might be pushing it with him). He is simply not that great...but he continually shoots wild shots. Thats the one you should bash on for not passing. I am talking about overall game...hes a good scorer, but he does little or anything of else. His play makes me believe, he thinks hes better than he really is.

Eddie-Talented? Yes. But good right now? No. He cant do anything consisntently on the offensive end. Tonight he shot well...but his stats for this year are frightening.

Ming-No Comment at this point.

Hawkins- Who?

Rice-Washed up....

I love the Rockets...they are my favorite team with ease in the NBA, but the simple fact is that they aren't very good right now. They have talented players...but the talents arent realized yet.

So that leads me to the Steve bashing. What PG in the league would you take over him? I would take absolutely nobody.

Not Kidd....Steve has way more potential than him. And hes already right there with him...NJ is full of scorers and finishers...Houston simply isnt. NJ has athletes who defend, rebound, shoot, and finish well. All of them are very good NBA players....I believe they are the only team whose entire starting 5 ranks in the top 100 in the league. So dont give Kidd all the credit...he still cant score or shoot worth crap.

As we saw tonight...The Sonics are very talented. They all are finishers and are all shooters for their positions. Lewis is really good, Barry doesnt miss, as Chad Ford of ESPN calls him "The most under-rated player in the league", Radmonovic does not miss and hes very talented. Mason? The guy would be amazing in a Rockets uniform. These guys can all shoot and finish...Huge difference with them and the Rockets. Take GP and Francis out of the mix the Sonics would run us off the court.

So you want Steve to pass more? Who is he passing to you is the question you people need to ask yourselves. Cuttino? If hes open hell dribble before he shoots....Ming? He will fumble the ball and take it the basket soft. Eddie? he will just shoot a wild jumper without a dribble. Rice? His knees are basically artificial.

The question that should be asked is....Why is Steve not shooting more..honestly. You guys should feel blessed that we have the most talented point guard in the league on our team. He is averaging 30 points, 11 boards and 6 dimes....LOOK at the FG percentage....Now I know you Steve Haters will tell me to look at the Turnovers....A lot of his turnovers are because his team-mates dont make the right reads on offense...fumble passes out of bounds...dont cut when they are suppose...(MING, Cato, and Eddie). And they only reason he doesnt have more assists is because his team cant finish...especially at the bucket.

Steve is amazing...He is simply having an amazing season and is playing at a higher level than any PG in the league. 30 points, 11 boards, 6 dimes and shooting 50+ get out of here...the guys ridiculous. If you want to see the Rockets win they should possibly implement the system I had brought up in a previous post with Steve playing the 2 and running around picks and open floor sets much the way Iverson does in Phili....Because I think Francis is a more complete scorer than Iverson and a better passer out of double teams.

In Conclusion, Stop the hating, start the appreciating. Steve is the best PG in the league and is playing at a level that most PGs cant even dream of. Count your lucky stars we have him. Steve is absolutely not about his stats, like many of you in here have said. This is a guy who is competitive and complete in terms of basketball skill. He wants to win and he knows this his team to carry, when he sees others cant get it done he plays his ass off to make up for it...by rebounding/scoring/passing...whatever it takes to win the game. This guy cried after losing his first game at Maryland....This is a winner not stat sheet lover. I personally go to bed with a smile knowing hes on my favorite team, some of you should start to think that way too.

 

You were doing well until that...

Don't be so sure...

 

Overall I agree with you. But I do think that Francis is a product of
the 90's "be like Mike" syndrome. Our best player, Francis, was weaned
on NBC/TNT/TBS highlights of Jordan.

I can tell, from the way he plays, that Francis'es biggest goal as a kid
was to "dunk like Jordan." Well, he's done that. Now, what about
the other aspects of his game?

And I'm not just taking about passing or defense. I'm talking about
little details about his overall game that makes me think he never practiced
anything other than right-handed dribbling or right-handed dunking.

Even Jordan in his first year knew how to dribble with his left
hand. The next time that Francis is waking/or fastbreaking the ball
up the court, count how many times he dribbles with his left hand.
He doesn't like to. Why? It's uncomfortable. If it's uncomfortable,
because he never practiced that fundamental pre-NBA.

Have you ever seen him dunk with his left hand? Lay-up with his left?

Using both your hands (ambidextrous) are parts of his game that
Jordan would use. Francis favors his right hand. Watch him when he
dribble up the court, sideways, looking for a pass, dribbling with his right
hand only.

Yes, for all his great abilities, he's a 90's baby. And a 90's baby is anti-old
school. We must suffer for the next 5 years before he'll learn.

If, Francis wants to be a winner, he must have the attidude of "leave no
stone untouched" in his game.

So, go ahead. Pull up a chair. Have a seat and make yourself at home. It's
going to be a long wait...90's babies take a long time to mature.

 

Oh boy, MORE blaming! Man.

I agree with others that Seattle just came out and did their thing, and we didn't. It was an ugly game and a loss, but as some pointed out, there were some positives. We still don't have our real starting lineup, many guys are just coming back from injury, and we are getting better. I just about pooped my pants when I saw the game start off with post ups by Griffin. Very easy shots in the beginning. In fact, the 1st qtr was very positive. Wish basketball was only 1 qtr, though. I noticed a lot of passing by both Francis AND Mobley. (Mobley doubled his passing to 2 passes. J/K.)

In the 3rd, we looked terrible everywhere. I think the Sonics began running a zone which hurt our offense and we had to play some other kind. And the Sonic went off that quarter. I can't believe I saw so many nothing-but-nets. It really hurt me. From the looks of it, I don't think any ONE player was to fault during the catastrophe; it seemed to be just good ball by the Sonics. I guess Rudy and the coaches could be partly to blame for not changing it up, but it sounded like they did and they still got burned. (I am not very good at telling zones, but I read we ran a couple of them.) Also, we probably had not gone over what to do when Payton is on. (Has anyone figured out what to do?) JMO's.

As for Steve, I don't know how anyone could say he played bad. Pretty much all the shots I saw his take were within the flow of the offense, and he was hitting shots like crazy. As for passing, he had 9 assists but could have had a lot more. I know Griffin fumbled a couple, and I want to say Cato did as well. Hawkins and Rice were missing some open shots, if I remember correctly. Kenny still seemed rusty. Yao.....uh...yeah. Basically, he could have had around the 10-15 assist range. I know Payton's team was hitting them, but like another poster said they have been together longer and are better shooters and finishers.

I'm just happy we are progressing, imo. Griffin got some post up shots and made them, Cat and Steve have been passing more, our players are coming back, and...uh...Yao did well Saturday.

These are just my opinions from the game.

 

The following are my observations based on the last couple games:

1) Francis-- what a player. This guy does it all and does it all well. I understand the popular consensus that he's doing it all himself, and I agree to an extent but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that for a couple years now he's had to do it all. Its seems like Francis is putting a lot of pressure on himself to win games -- he needs to learn to trust his teammates. He's got some great guys around him.

2)Yao -- I almost bought a round trip ticket to China to slap some sense into windandsea after reading his thread. I don't understand some of you -- people have said all along that this guy is going to need some time. I was there Saturday at the opener -- Yao has some beautiful moves. He's heady. He's compltely in the game -- mentally and physically, but he hasn't grasped American ball yet and the more I watch, the more convinced I am that this is going to take some time. He's going to get there guys, just not now. Not right off the bat. Sorry.

3)Hawkins -- Wowza. What a hustler. Rudy made the right choice here.

4)Mobley -- I hate this guy. I man, really loathe him. I mean really, whose idea was it to put so much talent into the hands of someone so neolithically r****ded you wonder why isn't still in High School. There's no doubt Mobes can score but it often comes at the expensive of any offensive momentum. Every time he handles the ball, the oftense slows to a crawl and often seems to have trouble picking itself back up. This is the same Mobley from '98. He isn't learning.

5)Overall -- A lot of our success this season hinges on Francis' willingness to open up to his teammates, keeping up the wonderful defensive tenacity, and Mobley getting hit by a mack truck (j/k -- kinda). As always, this teams fate lies in the hands of #3.

 

SCH,

btw: I think it is really cool of you to place your game take in this thread. Let's make these threads the place for oldtimers to post their takes. We will all read it. In that spirit, I have to give you a response.

Don't hold back on Mobley. lol we will never agree on this, to say the least. look at it this way, if he had the smarts of Dumars, he'd be a Hall of Famer and better than Francis. Ease up. The dude does listen to his coach. He's a good kid. And he seems more ready to switch offenses than Francis, imo. But he's still the SG, and he'll never reach Brent Barry's assist total. Is that sooo bad, as long as the offense starts clicking for everyone.

btw: I think windandsea lives in New Jersey.