ClutchCity.net Game Thread: Celtics @ Rockets 1/13/2003

And I think you're missing my point...

Anyways, Dreamshake's post is a combo of incorrect stats and and age old argument that, although is still correct, is slowly becoming a "was correct" statement (same with Francis). For the correct stats and reasons see RocketGuy3's reply to Dreamshake. But I don't think there are many SERIOUS problems. Entry passes are hard, and why force an entry pass that the Celtics are looking for when you can take their concentration on Yao and turn it into an open shot? Sometimes many of the ppl screaming don't seem to understand how difficult it can be to make an entry pass when the other team is intent on stopping you, but how much easier it is create an open shot because of it. I agree the jacking up of shots with four to six hands in your face needs to stop, but they're taking less of those. Also I like the distribution of scoring btwn Yao, Francis and Mobley, although in this game it was a bit lopsided. Teams are intent on stopping Yao now, which is giving Francis and Mobley better looks, and they take the shots. This was a very good game. Let's not spoil the win eh?

 

Novi, not talking about the stats, I'm talking about up above. Yes its old, that's why I don't want to say it again.

 

I think this pretty much sums up what I want to say (quote from a different thread but relevant). Cat isn't an extremely smart bkball player and, although I don't agree he's the biggest black hole, he does have tendencies to shoot ill advised shots (never mind that he still makes half of them...). And what I said in my last post is still true, I think it's changing. They're getting better, not being as selfish as before and taking better shots. I think the 50% shooting, 24 points and 6 dimes say that. The only thing ppl are screaming about is that they aren't getting those dimes from passing to Ming. Ming is definitely a presence on the floor and he makes it able for the team to get better shots and such, but ppl aren't happy that he isn't shooting when he's getting the ball and that he's not getting the ball a whole lot, in which there are many possible reasons, I've stated many before, but undoubtedly there are others. I think he should shoot more than 7 shots... but the flow of the game dictates that.

 

Even though I am not seeing signs of that trend developing, I am pretty confident that Yao will get more shots (not just touches) in the future. In the meantime, we just have to accept the fact that Cat will never be a smart player. As for SF, I think he will evolve and become more of a PG in a year or two.

As someone pointed out here, Rox is the 2nd youngest team in the league. Let's give them more time to grow.

 

Mellon,

I think the fundamental message you are trying to expresss is valid (although I disagree with your antics). It is true, that Ming does not need 40 shots. But I don't think the true issue about this debate revolves around shots. I feel it involves TOUCHES.

Rox played a good game tonight. The Celts clearly double and tripled Yao and his presence alone will create open shots for his team mates. The major problem in my mind is when Yao's team mates shoot ill advised jumpers or iso plays without having Yao touch the ball.

If Yao is single covered, he needs the ball. He is a smart player. Giving him the ball does not necessarily mean he will shoot it. I think it is in the Rox best interest to build the offense around low post. If nothing is there, then Franchise and Mobeley can try to break the defense with their one on one moves. But for the primary option, we need to at least "look" into the post.

 

Cmellon, c'mon this is just ridiculous. Nobody here bashed Francis or Cat and I think everybody is glad to have them on this team. The only reason people CRITICIZE him is cuz they should do better. Cat makes boneheaded mistakes. Let's look at your arguments:

1. Yao does not need 40 shots
True, but he doesn't get 40 shots either, even when he gets the chance he's still looking for better options. That's called playing smart ball.

2. Cat has better offensive stats.
It's pretty easy to have more pts when you jack up 20 shots a game, even if you shoot terribly you have more chance at pts.

3. Nobody blames Yao for his mistakes
Actually people do and I was one of them. Also, even if they don't, Yao is a rook and is still learning. I certainly don't expect a player that had been to his share of strip joints to make boneheaded mistakes like that. Also, tell me which Yao TO is a result from him doing ISO's all night.

4. Yao is a role player
Seriously you gotta be kidding me. If we need a role player center we don't need to go through all the troubles with China and waste a pick on him. He's the potential franchaise center.

5. Cat put on assists last game
The only reason Cat put up those assists last night was cuz there was a certain 7'5 scrub creating spaces in the paint. Besides, I don't considering dishing off to the open man good passing. I consider that tje norm, except for our extremely dumb basketball team.

Btw, if everybody bashes Cat is a Yao only lover then according to your logic you're a Cat only lover. Then you should be posting on CuttinoMania.com. Too bad he ain't got one.

 

Let's face the facts... this team needs a significant overhaul either in terms of personnel or mindset in order to fulfill its potential this season.
As many expert observers have noted, this year's Rockets have the talent to make it to the finals and win it all. Just saying we improved a significantly versus last season is weak bail-out. We have the opportunity to do something special this season, similar to what Magic did as a rookie for the Lakers. We have a unique, once in a generation talent in Yao and we often play as if he is invisible. Sure, we can still win games because of Yao's ability to draw the defense and because of Francis' talent and Mobley's streak shooting, but we'll be out in the first round of the playoffs. All you have to do is look at the formula we used to achieve our most impressive wins this season to see what we should be doing. Exactly, we dumped the ball into the big guy and let him dominate. But we need to make a concerted effort to get him the rock. The primary reason for Yao's underutilization is the guards' refusal to scale back their game for the good of the team, as well as Rudy's inability to hammer that very obvious idea home to his players. Yao is having a good season, but he should be dominating, and it's a true shame for the team that he is not. And frankly, it's not fair to the fans who support this team to have to put up with the erratic, showboating, perimeter-based play when we have right in front of us the opportunity to achieve something special this season. Yao is a championship-caliber player because of his overwhelming talent and precocious understanding of the game, and we need to maximize that by changing attitudes and/or personnel.

 

IMO Steve more often took us out of a team offense set than Mobley did. Mobley took some tough shots, and made many of them, when he was passed the ball with a few seconds left.

If you ask me, Steve is a greater barrier to getting Yao more touches in good position than Mobley is, I thought Mobley last night pretty much played according to the game plan with a couple of exceptions over the whole game.

I also notices Yao got really tired about midway in the 3rd quarter, Steve and Mobes were right at the time to direct the offense even though earlier in the 3rd I would have like to see more Yao touches.

Finally, Hawkins and Posey a couple of times passed on shots they should have taken. That is equally problematic for the offense as forcing them.

 

Totally agree with you. One addition. Ming in the low post is a 55% shooter, and Cat is a 40% shooter, why would people like him to take so many shots a night(actually the same can apply to Steve, but he is clearly several levels upper than Cat, so...) Anyways, Satistically, Cat was just having great night last, and we won, that's good. But he should never ever jack up shots and tries so hard to create it, which I am sure he wont quit doing. I hope people are not near sighted by this win.

 

First, Cat is a .428 shooter this year, Steve is a .436. Careerwise they are also within .005 of each other in shooting from the field and 3s, though Cat FT% is substantively better. I can't see any criticism on Cat's shooting that should not equally, or at least nearly equally, apply to Steve.

As I said before I prefer Yao gets more touches in good position then he does, but it that really more a responsibility of the point guard or the shooting guard? Also, a lot of Cat's tough shots were when he was passed the ball with only enough time for a quick shot--and he excelled in saving our bacon (making quite a few of them) in that situation last night. I think if you sit and watch replays you will see Cat did a pretty good job in shooting when he had too and passing when he should have.

 

Novi's obviously not a programmer. Great analogy Chen Zhen, btw.

 

FOOLS!!! Cat is in there to score, and recently he's been doing much more than that in addition. The point is that the Rockets have a lot of people that can help them out on the offensive end, and so they're supposed to use whichever one is effective! When they're hot, I don't give 2 sh!ts how they choose to take they're shots or how many shots they take. If they make them then you still want to give it to Yao? What the hell for? If you haven't noticed, Cat's and Stevie's percentages are among the highest 3 on the team (discluding like Cato, who takes like 3 shots a game, 2 being alley-oop dunks). They have ALWAYS been that high! In fact last year, Cat had a substantially higher FG% than the team as a whole. Those are definitely guys I want putting the ball up. Also, if you haven't noticed, Mobley tends to shoot less when he realizes his shot is off. It's not always true, but generally, if you look at the games where he shot below 40%, he took fewer shots than those where he shot above. This guy is smarter than you guys give him credit for.

I'm not going to tell you their games are perfect and that they're always unselfish or anything, but I want them to keep shooting when they're hot. I promise you that without Cat or Steve, even if they continue to play the way they are, this team is a pile of cow dung with virtually NO offensive diversity or depth. I don't understand how there's even an argument here. These guys can shoot the J better than ANYONE on this team, so STFU and let them do their job.

Do you remember when those two almost almost single-handedly led this team to the 2001 playoffs? Do you remember how Mobley shot the lights out in the second half of last season (when he was healthy)? Did you know Mobley shot 40% from 3 last year and Francis is in the top 5 in the league in 3pt%? Would you rather have Iverson jacking up 30 shots a game at 38% (and still leading his team to a winning record actually)?

 

Good call Rocketguy3, SF and Cat might be sloppy sometimes--(and it pisses me off as much as thoose who choose to bash them constantly)--but honestly, don't you want the ball in Cat's or SF hand when they are hot? It is a common phenomon that thoose who ask the questions are usually asked to find the answer; and while many of you have, many more haven't offered any good solutions.
I just wanted to say that I have been an avid Rox fan since 1992 but have been reluctent to use this site for some reason--cheers to Clutch!

 

What a achievement for our star players! BTW, there is no "almost" in sports, you need to rephrase it "Do you remember when those two DID NOT single-handedly led this team to the 2001 playoffs? "

 

Have you heard of a team concept? Last I've checked basketball is a team sport. You know, where you are supposed to pass it to the open guy. Don't you think the chance of passing to a wide open guy and easier way to score than ignoring all of your teammates and jack up some crazyshots with 3 guys all over you (even if you are red hot)?

Cat shot how much better than the team last year percentagewise? How much higher is Stevie and Cat compared to the FG Percent average of the team? Wow Cat shot 40 percent the last 3 years!! Impressive

Great investigation on your part. Cat is such a smart team player that he shoots less when his shot is off. Everybody in the NBA tends to shoot more when they are hot. On average, any kind of player would shoot less if they are cold. (Less plays ran for them, player more hesistant to shoot).

If some of you guys say shooting 50% is being hot, you must really suck most of the time...

 

I knew someone would try to be smart like that. Do some research before saying stuff like that. This was a formidable accomplishment considering that they got just 34 wins the season before. That season, they finished 45-37, the best record to ever not make the playoffs to this date. This was Francis' second year in the league and when Mobley was just beginning to blossom. They were 1 damn game away from the playoffs and had some impressive victories. Had they been in the East that year, they probably woulda been second place.

This is even more impressive because it was a backcourt duo leading them to this record. Very rare that a pair of gaurds can lead a team to a record like that (discluding Jordan/Pippen).

 

I don't believe players like Kobe, Iverson, or McGrady (or Francis) shoot a a brick less when they're cold, but they very rarely take heat for it. Mobley does (shoot less that is... apparently he takes heat regardless of whether he was cold). And the FG% of the team hovers around Steve and Cat's percentages because they take a good portion of the shots BECAUSE they make more than most others on the team.

And what was that crap about 50% not being hot??? Especially lately in the NBA, 50% IS hot for any team and almost any player (definitely ANY gaurd). That was a completely craptacular point.

And like I said, he may not always play the smartest ball in the world, but if he's hitting the shot , I don't want him to pass to someone just because their open because it's not necessarily a better shot than he'll get, in my opinion, unless they're right under the basket. And Mobley at least rarely is stupid enough to pass up on an opportunity like that.

 

Yeah. I'm a little reluctant to look at the BBS occasionally... it can be so depressing...

And sorry for the 3 consecutive posts. I just felt like I should reply to everyone...

 

Well, they had their shot at it. Seriouly, How many people really know about Mobely outside Houston?

With Ming in the low post, he cannot be reduced to a role player. Mobely is playing selfish bball, period. He's no MJ, not even close to AI.I am sure if Ming's in the Sixer team, AI will also give up and pass the ball to Ming. I know people would say it is not easy to get Ming's ball with Boston's tripple teaming him. Then how about pass it to him when he had the postion. Clearly Mobely doesnt have the mind set to look for Ming first, that is dumb. I dont care how they played before. You just gotta utilize the big guy. BTW, nobody is paying to see Mobely to jack up the shots. It's bad for the team, bad for everything.

 

Well considering Hawkins, Griffin, and Posey all pretty much only shoot when they are wide open and all shoot under 40%, and way under what Francis and Mobley do, your theory needs some tweaking at the minimum.

I have problems with how our guards don't get the ball to our big guys in great position (Francis-to-Yao especially) but our lead guards shooting % and points per shot are not bad--in fact better than every other Rocket who takes 5 or more shots per game except Yao. Thus the issue to me is not so much that our backcourt takes too many bad shots. That is a different issue than whether they set of the offense (set up Yao) as well as they should.