Clemens vs. Bonds- How much of a role will race play?

but the only people complaining about the personality are the reporters. its not a news story. the things bobby does are. do you see the difference again?

bobby knight recently shot someone in a hunting accident and was unapologetic and he recently got into a fight with his AD at a buffet.

first of all, you don't know any of this for fact, secondly, I would argue that roger isn't the most media friendly person, he can be quite prickly, and lastly I think its not being a jerk as much as its not kissing their behinds.

is it really difficult for you to understand the concept of the media shouldn't make the story. really is that difficult, because you have provided no evidence of bonds being a jerk, other than the mostly white media telling you so.

uh, I didn't write that so address that to who brought that up

 

Clemens was at the sporting goods store where I worked at the time signing autographs for 4 hours one Saturday. He didn't bother to put on the happy face then. He was a jerk to everyone, even the fans at times.

He did arrive plenty early, and was supposed to allow the employees to get autographs before the crowd was let in. He did, but very begrudgingly.

I don't think he smiled once, and he never shook hands or anything. He just took whatever paraphenalia the fan that was next in line presented to him, and without looking at them, asked, "Name?" Then he'd sign and the next person would step up, all excited. I cannot tell you how many people had looks of complete disappointment after they got their autograph and walked out.

As a bit of redemption though...my best friend stole Clemens' license plates off his Porsche. He had asked me what time Clemens was going to be there, but I just thought it was because he wanted an autograph. When Roger was about to leave, we all walked out back with him to see him off....and he noticed the plates were gone. Front and back. He was driving a Porsche 928.

Anyway, my buddy had the plates the next day in his locker. The license plate was a Texas plate and said "SUPER K" on it, and the license plate brackets said over the top "Mr. Cy Young" and across the bottom "Mr MVP."

Pompous arse.

 

Careful. He certainly has enough money to cause tis site and you grief should he choose to pursue it.

 

How many Roided up Pitchers did the Babe have to face? *grin*

Rocket River
Asterisks are full of *****

 

I've never understood this line of logic. Let's say 30% of pitchers are roided up these days. That means Barry Bonds was on even footing against 30% of opponents (both parties are roided) and had a distinct advantage over 70% of his opponents (roided vs. non). Babe and Aaron were on even footing with 100% of their opponents. How does this make Barry look any better? Now only 70% of his HR's were cheater-aided instead of 100%?

 

I thought Aaron held the previous record?

 

I think it's important to remember that there is only a mention of Clemens in the report as far as we can tell so far. That's a long way from proof that he actually did steroids.

As far as the question goes - I think race will play little in the reactions. There are quite a few haters of Clemens out there who will go after him full bore, quite a few apologists who will not. Bonds is pretty much universally distained, and it doesn't have anything to do with his race.

100% of his homers aren't steroid related. He had a decent number of dingers before he bloated up on steroids.

 

Nope. I already addressed this. You are welcome to disagree.

I didn't know that, actually. I don't pay much attention. I can say that personally, I remember him most for his press conferences and the way he talks to his players. The other things are idiotic. But in my estimation he is a flawed human being primarily based on the way he treats other human beings on a day to day basis. I am familiar with a couple of sports writers who will openly admit to hating the man, and all of them site personal interactions as the reason, not whatever he did to his AD.

He is absolutely in a different class than Bonds. I guarantee you that if you ask 1,000 sportswriters, 999 will tell you so. You can characterize it however you want. You can parse it how ever you want. But if everybody else 'plays the game' with the reporters any you don't, whose fault is it when you get bad press because of that? If you want to characterize him as some sort of James Dean rebel maverick who is too cool and real to stoop to talking in empty platitudes to reporters, that is fine. It still comes back to the same thing.

Things are always seen through the filter of the observer. It is kind of fundamental. You can argue that it shouldn't happen, but it does every day in both instances that involve black men and that don't involve black men. It is universal. If you want to yell and shake your fist because the wind blows or because it rains, go ahead. But you won't get anywhere.

So... just to be clear here, you are saying it is a white media conspiracy, or that all the white media writers happen to be racists simultaneously? And how do you account for the minority of minority writers not exposing this great injustice.

I don't have tangible evidence than man landed on the moon. Is that a white media conspiracy, too? I could list a really long list here of things that I don't have tangible evidence for, except what I have been told by the media. But it would be really, really long. So I'll let you use your imagination.

From my perspective, you seem a lot more interested in classifying and typing people by race than any of the reporters that I know of. Would you really be defending Bonds here if he was a corn fed red-headed freckle faced Mark McGuire clone from Iowa? I obviously don't know what is in your head. But based on the way Bonds' dilemma this was initially classified as a case of racism, my gut tells me the answer is no.

I know absolutely that if he were that other guy, I would still place the blame for his predicament squarely on his own shoulders if anybody argued otherwise.

 

Certainly - but nearly half (~350) of his career homers came starting in 1999, when he's first alleged to have gotten interested in steroids. Assuming 70% of those were against non-roided pitchers, then you're talking about ~250 HRs hit when he had an advantage from steroids. How many of those wouldn't have been hit if he weren't on steroids? Who knows - but probably more than the 10-15 that he surpassed Aaron by. Beyond that, how many years did steroids extend his career at a peak level?

 

Your friend is a thief, pure and simple. I hope he gets caught and receives whatever punishment is appropriate. It is certainly not "redemption" or anything to be proud of.

I also assume that Clutch does not appreciate the posting of a thief's activities on this message board. Someone could easily forward your post to the HPD and they could cause Clutch all sorts of trouble by asking for any records related to who you are so that they could recover the plates that your best friend (the thief) stole.

 

well said...

but bonds had his leather recliner long before clemens came to the astros...

clemens may be a jerk but hes cordial to the media. he may not be someone you want to be neighbors with but atleast there is some level of civility.

everything i have seen, read, and heard about bonds tells makes me think, how can reporters put up with this jerk.

 

I think Rose should be in the hall too.


True story about Barry Bonds, my babysitter had a son and a few years ago, he was about 7ish and they were at the game trying to get an autograph.

Everyone was yelling "Barry, barry, can you sign my ball etc" but this little boy, was saying "Mr. Bonds, Mr. Bonds" etc....

And he turned around walked right up to the little boy and said that since he was being so polite and calling him "Mr. Bonds" he would sign his ball.

She said he was a completely nice guy to her son.

DD

 

I don't know if its a conspiracy or not, I just don't care about what a bunch of sports reporters think about bonds

its easy for you to say, "oh your argument is there is one big conspiracy, that's crazy" when in fact I've never said that. so if its easy for you to make that argument, you can have that argument with yourself since I never said that

man landing on the moon is a story, moon not giving me an interview isn't

we are talking about bonds, he's the only athlete I know who gets drug through the media behind nothing more than hurt feelings, if you can give an example of a white athlete who's constantly called a jerk despite being the greatest in his sport, the analogy would be relevant, until then it isn't

the only time I mentioned the "white" media is once. do I think race is involved sure. its not the only thing but I think its a component.

 

Not disagreeing, just wanted you to note that you can't claim 70 - 100% of his homers as steroid aided since he hit a bunch before his steroid involvement.

 

I gotta admit I lost a lot of interest in baseball after the strike. I still kept up with the Astros when they were competing for the NL Central pennant, but all in all I've been a casual fan since. I'd vote both in the Hall of Fame if I could and I don't think the fact that Bonds is a jerk is fair to how he is scrutinized.

I don't doubt that he did in fact cheat, but the punishment should be the equally the same to a media darling and an utter jerk. Frankly I side with Bonds and his attitude towards the media. It's gotta suck to feel like you're being interrogated for every comment you make. Bonds took a s-hit this morning? Did he use Charmin with lotion or did he feel manly and grabbed a slab of bark from the tree in the backyard to wipe his ass? I've really no vested interest wondering whether he'll be found guilty or not. The same applies to Clemens.

It sucks to say it but I've pretty much become desensitized when I hear a baseball player has been taking performance enhancing drugs. The fact that its likely Bonds went against pitchers who juiced I think that should be taken into account if he is found guilty as well. I don't think an asterisk should be added to the record if only because you don't know who to trust that's been clean all their career. If the majority of athletes are juiced the playing field is even and Bonds is only trying to match the competition he has faced. Sad truth to consider but the possibility is more likely to be a reality than you'd think.

 

I didn't steal anything.....my friend did.....with whom I no longer have contact. In fact, I heard he disappeared several years ago somewhere in New Mexico.

 

Lastly, it has been noted that bonds doesn't trust the media because of his father's relationship with the media during his playing days. so maybe he is a jerk to the media, but that doesn't extrapolate to the rest of his relationships.

if I'm a media member, and I don't like someone already, do you think if I go looking for stories to make that person seem like a jerk, and I hear 6 stories about how fans had a pleasant encounter and 4 stories about how fans had an unpleasant encounter, which ones do you think I will report.

the sports media is full of ****. the classic example is randy moss, how they all couldn't wait to say he was everything they guessed after his season in Oakland. They were so upset that randy proved every damn media person and the supid 18 owners who passed him up that every little negative story about moss got over blown.

well moss is now solidifying his hall of fame career, and again the people who said he was a risk and the owners who passed him up look like idiots. but you would have thought he was a bust during his oakland days.

could it be that oakland just sucks?

sorry moe

 

Also I think race is going to be a heavy factor in how Bonds is treated to the likes of other athletes who will mostly go unnoticed and receive a slap on the wrist. Jason Giambi basically admitted as much that he juiced in the middle of the season yet there was hardly any scrutiny given to him in comparison to Bonds. And this is from an athlete apart of a team that is the most merchandised and popular team in the world. Any interrogation on perjury because he may have lied is in the same mold of Clinton denying he had an affair outside of his marriage. It's human nature to want to deny an act that may tarnish your image. It doesn't excuse it, but it is a reason I can certainly relate to.

 

Clemens is no different than Bonds

Year after year he peddled the same garbage, Roger Clemens was so dominant for so long because he simply outworked everyone. It played to the nation's Puritan roots, made Clemens out to be this everyman maximizing his skills through singular focus, dedication and a commitment to drinking carrot juice, or something.

It's all gone now, the legend of Rocket Roger dead on arrival of the Mitchell Report; one of the greatest pitchers of all time, his seven Cy Youngs and 354 career victories lost to history under a pile of lies and syringes.

Clemens was injected with performance-enhancing drugs and human growth hormones by his former trainer starting in 2000 and continuing many times through the years, trainer Brian McNamee told George Mitchell in great detail.

Baseball has its white Barry Bonds.
The sport has been waiting for the other shoe to drop on the 45-year-old Clemens for years. What he did defied not just age, but belief, and if there is one thing we know about Bud Selig's sorry era, it's that if something seems too good to be true, it is.

The smoking gun comes from Brian McNamee, a former New York Yankees employee who used to work as a personal trainer for Clemens and his buddy Andy Pettitte, who is also cited in the report. McNamee is also a witness in a federal investigation and spoke to Mitchell and federal investigators under the penalty of perjury. The details are in Mitchell's 300-plus page, 20-month, $30 million report released Thursday afternoon.

Clemens refused to meet with Mitchell, according to the report. "In order to provide Clemens with information about these allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined," Mitchell wrote.

If McNamee is wrong and Mitchell ran with it anyway, then Clemens can sue the former Congressional leader, Major League Baseball and his drug-dealing former trainer for about a billion dollars.

This report, painstakingly investigated and detailed, may be a witch hunt to cleanse Selig's soul, but it isn't operated by fools. It’s extremely unlikely Mitchell and MLB would set itself up for such risk.

No matter what the defense that emerges, Clemens will struggle to ever win in the court of public opinion.

Which leaves baseball fans with the gut-punch reality that the generations' greatest hitter – Bonds – and greatest pitcher – Clemens – are nothing but drug-enhanced cautionary tales.

It is Clemens and his arrogance through the years that makes this one so distasteful. Just like Bonds, he relished in his greatness, seemed to mock all the other mortals who couldn't keep up with his workout regimens, his off-season drive, his freak of nature physical abilities.

He liked to convey that maybe anyone could do this, if they just were as tough as the Texas Con Man.

And just like Bonds, you have to wonder why it was ever necessary. Clemens was an all-time great back in the 1980s and early 1990s, when he was presumably clean. He had three Cy Youngs and a MVP by 1991, when he was just 28. He didn't need to cheat to become rich and famous.

Maybe it was ego, maybe jealousy, maybe insecurity. It hardly matters now that his deal with the devil just came painfully due.

There is a forgivable element to some of the other names. Baseball is a global game now, which is why there are too many factors involved – a chance to leave third-world poverty for cash-flush America – to ever end the lure of doping.

Clemens has no such excuse.

The only surprise here for anyone paying attention was that Mitchell actually caught him.

For years Bonds supporters have pointed the finger at Clemens as a sign of a media (and racial) double standard. Their guy was getting crucified daily, while Clemens was getting standing ovations and new contracts.

But until now there was never a credible link to performance-enhancing drugs. There were rumors, broad-based speculation and a tenuous mention in the Jason Grimsley affidavit. But Bonds was caught up in a federal investigation into BALCO, a prison term for Victor Conte and a mountain of other evidence.

Call it Clemens' good fortune, but there was only so much you could say. Not any longer.

Anyone who spent years spewing contempt at Bonds needs to do the same to Clemens, because there is no difference between them.

They are just two guys who had it all, foolishly went for more, and have now lost everything.

Welcome to America's pastime, pass the peanuts and cracker jacks.

Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send Dan a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

 

Tell me, then, what did the 'white reporters' comment intend? I gave the only two potential explanations that I could think of. Maybe there is one I missed. But you brought it up and left it hanging there. If you don't think the fact that they are a group of white men is somehow relevant, then why? It is easy for you to throw an open ended race comment in there and immediately disavow it when called on it. If you meant something else, please explain what. But it seems like you are trying to imply things without having to back them up with proof.

Nice attempt at a dodge but it is absolutely relevant. I could invert this and come up with all sorts of things that would probably offend the hell out of you, but they would offend the hell out of me so I won't. Just reverse black with white and white with black using some known cases of racism, and imagine some Kentucky racist saying it. I think you would explode, and I wouldn't blame you one bit.

If you really mean this and refuse to think about it, then I guess it might explain some things.