I'm suggesting that everyone that has been looking into the steroids issue - from the original congressional committee to the BALCO prosecutors to all the people involved in that Arizona's player's affidavit, etc - have all been accused of exactly this. That it's just a publicity stunt, etc. And yet, each time, they connect more and more links in this web, and more and more prosecutions have come out of it. The Feds are going through the web of distributors and users - the more they find, the more people they have to talk to. The more people they talk to, the more sources they find. The more sources they find, the more end users they find - and then repeat the process. It's been a steadily growing "sting" type operation over the last many years. Also - do we know that the feds for McNamee to talk to Mitchell? We know that the Feds talked to McNamee and Mitchell talked to McNamee. But do we have anything besides Clemens' lawsuit that alleges that he was forced by the feds to talk to Mitchell?
Except that as I pointed out McNamee supplied Pettite (let's take the one example that has been corroborated), for example, so it would be a circle to argue they squeezed McNamee for names to get suppliers names: Feds: McNamee - who did you supply drugs to? McNamee: Pettite. Feds: Where did Pettite get the drugs? McNamee: uh, from me. There would be no other reason for McNamee to talk to Mitchell, and I do believe it has been reported as part of his deal.
Except that assumes there's only one source of anything. Once you get Pettitte's name out, then maybe that leads to something else. What if he had another source as well? What if Clemens got his steroids from elsewhere? On the first part - so everyone that talked to Mitchell did so under federal threat? The latter part certainly could be, and I don't know why necessarily unless the Feds thought it would help uncover more and more of the web.
I don't understand why all the Clemens threads are in here, he's a Yankee if anything. Tough call to listen to. Hardin totally told him to pay respect to his UT coach's son at the top. You could see him lean over and say"put this first".
Gotta love how he called out Dick Justice though. Can't wait to see what he'll say in his blog later.
I don't think he hurt himself...but he probably didn't help himself either. It seemed that conversation leaned more toward Roger's innocence...but then at the same time why didn't Roger (when asked several times by McNamee on what he should do) tell him to come down to the press conference and admit his (Roger's) innocence? Why didn't Roger say something definitive like "you know I didn't do steroids" but then also why didn't McNamee say something definitive in his case "Roger I AM telling the truth, you did do steroids." If anything, the more I think about it, the more confused the situation gets. I can understand Clemens was trying to see where the conversation was heading...maybe he didn't want to come off too forceful. And maybe he didn't ask him to come down because he knew if McNamee admitted the truth his life would be ruined. In that case he seems to be doing everything possible to clear his own name without ruining bringing down his friend. Even with the defamation suit, as long as McNamee sticks to his word he stays out of jail. And I can understand that. One of these guys is going to have to come clean for this issue to have any kind of closure.
The phone recording was weird for 3 reasons. 1. They blamed the McNamee people for leaking it to some news organization - but they were the ones that recorded it. From what analysts are saying (I didn't hear the first part of it), the conversation sounded like McNamee didn't know it was being recorded. Anyone have thoughts? 2. Why didn't McNamee ever something along the lines of "you did it / you know I'm telling the truth / etc"? 3. When McNamee asked 2 dozen times "I'll do whatever you want - just tell me what you want me to do", why doesn't Clemens just say "come out and tell the truth"? That was just a messed up conversation, and I wonder how it would have been different had it been truly private. We know at least one party knew it was being recorded - we don't know the other one yet.
I agree. Clemens sounded like an awful human being trying to setup a guy whose 10 year old son is dying. McNamee sounded like he worshiped the guy. I wonder whats going to happen if congress asks Pettitte if he has any knowledge of steroid use by Clemens. Did you guys see Clemens get annoyed when Hardin slipped him a note telling him to lighten up?
I wonder if McNamee thought the conversation could be recorded which could explain why he never called Clemens a liar, but stopped short of admit any wrongdoing he may have done. Course then he kept asking Clemens what he wanted to do and even offered to go to jail...but he never said he had lied about his allegations....very weird.
that was just awful. I don't know what Clemens is thinking, and I think this really hurt him. The conversation was filled with loose wording that was easy to detect. I'm sure his lawyers had him practice this a million different times. Here's an example of Clemens trying to say something so that it would sound like he was innocent and telling the truth. Example: "Everyone we worked with told me that they were shocked when they heard the news." He's trying to make it sound like everyone was shocked that he was on the Mitchell Report because they would know that wasn't true. This was a crafted statement by his lawyers. McNamee definitely would not say, "why were they shocked, you did it", because if this is all true he would think that they were all just shocked that it came out. Also, I think he tried to confuse McNamee in the interview. Clemens kept talking about the truth, so maybe, just maybe McNamee thought Clemens was thinking about coming out like Pettit? I'm not sure about this thought though. Anyways I just thought this was just awful for Clemens. If I was Roger this is what I would've done, knowing I was taping this conversation. when mcnamee was saying how much he loved roger and how much roger had done for him i would've said this (if i never took anything) "Do you think its okay for you to lie about someone who's done so much for you?" (answer, probably no) "Then why did you say what you said about me! " (he'd say something like "cause i need to cause of this) "Well then you are a hypocrite. Just answer me this you son of a ----. Did you ever inject me with roids!!!!.... Did I ever take them!!! You know these acquisations are all a bunch of horse ---- "(loudly to show how pissed I am to let him know that im showing him how full of crap he is) (if i was clean and he lied, he would say "i know i know". he would answer my questions and i would be vindicated) Since Roger obviously had high priced lawyers telling him what to do and say I'm 100 percent sure that they could've got some daming evidence in Clemens favor in that conversation if Clemens was clean. I'm just some idiot 20 year old, and I could've done 100% better then Clemens did. It's just so easy. You could even do it quicker then the example i just gave. You could sarcastically say "people keep telling me that you injected me with roids, now tell me brian..... did you really do that? did i really use them". then you'd have your answer. Clemens' tape is a joke. If McNamee is really lieing and I was Roger Clemens, I would fire my entire legal staff.
I agree with Major and Junkyard.. and think that quite possibly he didn't use bette rwording cause he didn't want his friend to go to jail either.. esp. given the situation BM is in with his family
Well for one, if McNamee is at all smart, he would have seen the game Clemen's was trying to play easily if Clemens came out and said "did you really inject me with roids?" Why, in the course of a normal conversation would somebody ever ask that when both parties know good and well the truth. A better response might have been: "You know good and well I didn't take steroids" or "Why dont' you tell them the truth" But again, like I've said, I think Clemens may have stopped short of that because he didn't want someone he's been close friends with to go to jail. It's the same reason he refused to call Pettite a cheat. Also, I wonder if there's even another side to this story. According to the press conference Clemens NEVER supplied McNamee with drugs...he always got them from McNamee and he didn't know where McNamee could have gotten them. Is it possible that Clemens was under the impression he was being given B-12 and/or Lidocaine when McNamee was given him something else? Which could explain why McNamee stopped short himself of admitting any guilt, despite his willingness to do whatever Clemens wanted him to do. He can't exactly say that Clemens never took steroids when, in fact, he unknowingly did. But that is probably a big stretch. In any case, everything in the interview really just clouds the issue more and everything said here is just pure speculation. Now I'm pretty sure what Clemens will say in regards to himself when he goes before Congress. And I bet that Pettite will refuse to answer questions about Clemens or will say he had no knowledge of him taking any drugs. But it will be interesting to see what McNamee says, if he does appear. Based on the phone conversation, he seemed pretty distraught and possibly remorseful.
god look how scripted this was so mcnamee wouldn't give anything away. I just listened to the tape again and noticed these parts. Clemens- "I'm hearing a ton of other things and just the stuff that i'm reading its just so much of it is not true" - Notice how he says "a ton of other things" and "so much of it is not true". What other things? So much of it is not true..... He said that so McNamee would just think well the media's going nuts and maybe they're saying some other crazy stuff that is not true... maybe when he started taking them... when he stopped... maybe the "other stuff he's hearing" is people saying that he took a good chunk of last season off before going to the Yankees was so he could just get roided up and avoid being tested.... Roger's statement would not make McNamee think that Roger was saying that he heard from people that McNamee injected him with roids and that was not true. He just said he heard other things, which I'm sure is easy for McNamee to believe, since the media and people tend to go crazy when these kind of stories emerge and they might exaggerate certain points. If I was Clemens and I was innocent I would say, "I'm hearing that I took steroids and that you injected me with steroids and this is just not true because I never took steroids. Those were b12 injections and nothing else". ----- Clemens- "i just want the truth and if i got to go you know whatever im doing i just want the truth out there. like i said i just cant believe what was said. we're getting it from all angles." - Whatever I'm doing... maybe it gives McNamee the idea that he's thinking about telling the truth... who knows. He can't believe what was said. Again he's not being specific. Is he talking about what was said about him shooting roids or is he talking about what was said about what this does to his Hall of Fame chances or people calling him a cheater or anything like that? Again he's not being specific at all. You would think if he knew that McNamee knew that he was innocent he would just say "I can't believe that people think that I took steroids, because the truth is that I never took steroids" instead of saying he just wants the truth and that he can't believe the crap the media's saying about him. He's not being specific at all. You would think his team of lawyers would tell him to give specific details, so that this tape really proves his innocence if he was innocent. ------------ Clemens- "I just don't know why you did it. I treated you just like anybody else and you knew that". - Again... such loose wording. Why you did it?. Why you lied or why you snitched on me? McNamee at this point still might be thinking that Clemens is not denying using steroids, since he has not flat done that in this conversation. If a friend of mine told on me for something and it was try, I would say that same thing. "Why did you do that?" In other words- "why did you tell on me man?" If I was innocent and was taping a conversation I would say, "why did you lie about me? You are a liar! I'm innocent!" This is obvious how deceiving Roger is being. Especially when he is going on about how well he treated Brian. Basically, McNamee's hearing, "Why would you tell on me man; I've been so good to you". -------------- Clemens- "They just can't believe what's being said." - Same, loose wording. They can't believe this came out. They can't believe my spot in the Hall might be at risk.... Who knows. ----------- Clemens- "I didn't do it. All this stuff" - Yet again! Loose wording. Didn't do what? Steroids.... the crap McNamee's going through with the pressure from the press....... who knows. ------------------- Clemens- "I'm just going to go out and tell the truth. (then he talks about false la times story" - Still Clemens hasn't come out and flat out say that he's innocent of doing steroids. Maybe McNamee's thinking that he's going to come out and speak up? Who knows. Maybe then he was telling McNamee that he would get killed for saying it, since the press is always against him? Still very loose wording on everything. -------------- "I need someone to come out and tell the truth.... we've got this press conference". - LOOSE WORDING AGAIN. Doesn't say what the truth is! ----------------- Clemens- "I'm trying to find out why you would tell guys that I took steroids". - He's not distinctly saying "why did you lie and tell guys that I took steroids". That's what I would try to do if I was innocent (with lawyers all around me who are much smarter then some little 20 year old college student). As soon as McNamee says something about the guys who recorded him Clemens changes the subject and asks him who they were, which was obviously the investigators. -------------------------------- Then Clemens says he's got a press conference on Monday.... that McNamee says what do you want me to do, which he says like 15 or 20 times in the interview. Clemens says he's got the press conference on Monday and "i'm telling the truth." Then McNamee says, "what do you want me to do and he'd go to jail for him". I'm thinking since Clemens has not flat out said he didn't take steroids, and he just said that he's got a press conference on Monday, followed by "I'm telling to truth", McNamee's thinking "wow he's going to come out and admit it like Andy!" Then McNamee "what do you want me to do. I'll go to jail". Maybe in other words, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to give some excuse for you on why you took them or make sure that everyone knows that Roger still would've been as good and strong without them... bla bla bla. Then McNamee says he'll go to jail for him, which maybe mean that he is really saying to Roger that if he doesn't want to admit it he'll lie for him. This is just speculation, so maybe that last part is not true, but who knows. I think that at this point McNamee really was confused don what Roger was planning on doing, which was the reason why he kept repeating, "what do you want me to do". Again, I would have said if I was innocent, "I'm gonna hold a press conference and tell everyone the truth; I never took steroids". -------------- Clemens- "This who thing is ridiculous... (McNamee- what do you want me to do) I didn't do this. I didn't do it." - Again; loose wording!!!!!!!! McNamee could be thinking Clemens is telling him, "this whole big scene and what we've had to go through is ridiculous. This isn't my fault. This isn't my doing. It is your fault for snitching on me." Then Clemens goes on talking about his son and his family. ----------- Clemens (after McNamee tells him how he's lost his kids and his wife and just about everything)- "I didn't do this Mac." - This is the most obvious, crafted selection of wording by Clemens. A perfect chance to deceive people into thinking that he was telling McNamee that he didn't take steroids, with McNamee thinking something entirely different. Clemens has McNamee think that he is saying that he wasn't responsible for McNamee losing his wife and kids and everything he cherished. This was not Roger's fault. Yet Roger would like us to believe that McNamee thought he was saying that he didn't take steroids. Why didn't Roger, knowing this was recorded, flat out say "I did not take steroids" instead of "I did not do this". ---------- Clemens- "Give me a little bit of time." - Maybe he's discretely making McNamee think that he needs time to decide whether or not he's going to come out. --------- Clemens- (talks about his family problems from this)'I need someone to tell the truth.... i've got to visit with some people... I'm shocked by some of the other things that have been said. I didn't do it. We need to move on from there" - Yet again. At first he seems to make it seem to McNamee like he needs to get someone (like his lawyer) to go out there with him and spill the beans. Then I'm shocked by "some of the other things that have been said." Again "other things". Not "that I took steroids". If this was me I would say, "I never took steroids and I'm shocked that anyone would think that." Then again he says, "I didn't do this", followed by McNamee saying, "what do you want me to do". I think he's getting McNamee to think that he's blaming him for what they've been going through, which is why McNamee feels he needs to make these right with Roger and help him out, by saying "what you want me to do". -------- This whole conversation was thoroughly scripted by Roger and his people. I think it kept McNamee confused and possibly had him believe that Roger was going to come out and tell the truth, which is why McNamee was puzzled and kept saying "what do you want me to do". Clemens never clearly states that he never took steroids, and never tells exactly what he is shocked about, what he is telling the truth about, what the truth is, and what he did not do. No specifics. No clear context. He also seemed to make sure that he shaped the conversation so that McNamee would not say anything about him doing steroids. Clemens clearly avoided using specifics, to keep McNamee from knowing that he was trying to make it sound like he was proving his innocence. There is no way that an innocent Clemens, with top notch lawyers coaching him, would not be able to get solid, concrete evidence that McNamee lied about his steroid use. I'm 20 years old and I guarantee that if I was Roger and I was innocent, I could've got damning evidence from talking to McNamee. I think that this was an awful idea for Clemens to come out with this tape. I went from thinking that there was a 95% chance of Roger taking steroids to thinking that there's a 99.9% chance that the allegations against him are true. If they are not true (and probably if they are true), Roger better file his legal team. An innocent Roger Clemens should've been able to do a much better job getting the truth out in that tape. However, after listening to the conversation, it seems more plausible that we heard from a guilty Roger Clemens.
Some interesting ESPN articles: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3185494 http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=3185451&sportCat=mlb Two interesting things - despite being supposedly shocked at the allegations against him when the Mitchell Report was released, he was warned that McNamee had talked to the government many days before the release of the report. Also, while he said recently he is getting investigators to look into it, apparently he already had active investigators taking to McNamee days before the report was ever released. Laying out a timeline of events, Hardin said on Monday that they did find out before the release of the Mitchell report that McNamee had made incriminating statements about Clemens. They decided not to respond, Hardin said, because it was not clear if the report would name names. They also had another hope. "Roger thought that since it was so untrue, perhaps Brian McNamee would change his mind," Hardin said. The New York Daily News also reported on Monday that days before the scheduled release of the Mitchell report, Clemens' investigators asked McNamee whether he would be willing to recant. McNamee reportedly called Clemens and Pettitte to warn them that he had spoken to the government. During an interview on "60 Minutes" which aired on Sunday night, Clemens denied knowing that he would be named by Mitchell. If you didn't know you were going to be named, why did you send investigators asking McNamee to recant before the report ever came out? (this assumes the New York Daily News report is true)
good points. i was just saying that if he sarcastically said that acting like a wise ass, that might be a good option. ex. (....probably a horrible bad example of sarcasm thought of on the fly...) "so kevin said he saw you kissing someone that looks just like my girlfriend last night.... now why would kevin say such a thing.....were you really kissing my girlfriend". and your proposed response is pretty good.
