I dont have anything PERSONAL against Clemens, but I have many reasons for not bringing him back to Houston. Ric accused me of using the steroid accusations as a cover for something personal against Roger. If it was personal, then you should be able to find some of that in my old posts, but you wont. I cheered for Roger just as much as any Astro fan when he was here. Now, if we are talking about bringing him BACK, that's a separate issue. There are many reasons I dont want him here, as I outlined so eloquently. It has to do with the steroids, his health, and the way he seemed to just use us. If you want to find contradictions, ask the people who called him a backstabber, Pettitte's "gay boyfriend," greedy, etc. and ask them why they want him back just a few months later.
I guess we're part of the "win at all costs" mentality. But I'm also one of those people that keeps buying tickets and watching games even when the team is in last place. So I'm not sure how much that really means for practical purposes. I certainly wouldnt advocate a player playing when the doctors advise otherwise. And I dont think sinling steroids out is arbitrary at all. It's no more arbitrary than making crack and heroin illegal and keep other drugs legal.
How far do you take this though? Are we not allowed to condemn any cheating then, since we're all part of this culture of "win at all costs"? If a tennis player goes and breaks his opponent's leg off the court, is it OK? I mean, it's not specifically banned by tennis rules; it's illegal, but so are steroids. He's just trying to win at all costs, no? If a football player gives the opposing team food poisoning, no big deal? Yes, we all arbitrarily draw a line. I don't see why there's anything wrong with that. It doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch to say that doing things that are illegal by US law is over the line, does it? That would include steroids and all of the above scenarios.
I agree with your take in principle, but to be fair there is a very significant distinction between injecting steroids and the other scenarios you bring up: the others involve attacking the well-being of others, which crosses a whole 'nother line--and that's not some arbitrary made-up line, either.
Sure - but there's a big difference between secretly having teammates inject steroids in you vs. taking legal cortizone shots under the care of the team doctor. What about paying off a ref? There's no injury/well-being of others issue there. There are so many different things on this spectrum - I picked the far extreme just to make the point, of course.
i recognize conversations and ideas often devolve and degrade in these forums, so let me clariy that i've always and only intended to argue that our willingness - as fans - to draw arbitrary lines in a "win at all costs" culture that we have (co)created and maintain is... curious... interesting...
oh, absolutely. i didn't mean for this to devolve as much as it has. i just think we all - me included - prefer NOT to know what goes on in the locker room; choosing instead to concern ourselves ONLY with the end result of game day. and when we are inevitably forced to look behind the curtain, so to speak, i feel we have a tendency to huff and puff a bit too self-righteously - not because how we feel is wrong, but more because we're assuaging our guilt over encouraging a win at all costs culture in which we prefer to not actually have to consider the costs. i mean, nothing from the mitchell report should have shocked anyone paying attention - so where was all this indignant, "how DARE they sully the sanctity of the game" blather these past several years while baseball was setting attendance records?... athletes have been "supplementing" their performance in various ways for a century or more. we only seem to care when we're forced to notice.
Of course after the first foul ball that would be irrelevant. The Mets were getting the balls checked right after he pitched them and the umpire found nothing.
Imagine that. The dirty rat is DENYING everything. Predictable for a man with no character or integrity. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7580456?MSNHPHMA
