1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

CJR: Obama seriously misleading voters about McCain's "100 years"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Apr 2, 2008.

  1. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    10,261
    I fail to see the difference... unless you're talking about jeep accidents and training mishaps.
     
  2. ymc

    ymc Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,969
    Likes Received:
    36
    I am not sure if you need to be killed by a Japanese in uniform to be counted as a combat death. If a soldier was killed by a non-uniformed Japanese, do you think it is a combat death?
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,424
    Likes Received:
    9,324
    no, it has not, since by it's very nature a fact cannot be disproved.
     
  4. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,804
    Likes Received:
    3,709

    who's trying to spin
     
  5. ymc

    ymc Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,969
    Likes Received:
    36
    Well, I was talking about "post-conflict deaths" which is more general than "post-conflict combat death". So rimrocker produced a source for the latter. I am now understand what he was at. What is the spin here? :confused:
     
  6. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,804
    Likes Received:
    3,709
    the spin is you are still trying to argue as if post war japan was a violent place. it wasn't that's where the comparison falls apart.
     
  7. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    46,858
    Likes Received:
    12,450
    My point was to use Afghanistan to refute your idea that oil was the sole reason to stay in Iraq with Al Qaeda being no more than a public excuse. Al Qaeda is a big enough reason by itself without oil.
     
  8. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    10,261
    Alas, the facts are not on your side.

     
  9. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Not according to anyone that has any credibility. The only people who still spout this tired old line are Bush bobbleheads like you and the idiot twins.
     
  10. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,424
    Likes Received:
    9,324
    fixed

    [rquoter]Still More Journalistic Sanity on Iraq and al Qaeda

    In the middle of a long and fascinating piece on his regrets about the Iraq War, former New Yorker writer Jeffrey Goldberg, now with the Atlantic Monthly, discusses the new Institute for Defense Analyses report on Iraq and Terrorism. Unlike, virtually every other reporter, he appears to have read it. "Before the war," he writes, "I believed that Saddam was a supporter of terrorist groups."

    The report on Saddam's terrorist ties released last week by the Joint Forces Command confirms this (not that you would know it from the scant press coverage of the study). The study, citing captured Iraqi documents, indicates that Saddam's regime supported various jihadist groups, including Ayman al-Zawahiri's, and including Kurdish Islamist groups, about whom I have reported. But read the study for yourself; it's actually quite an achievement of translation and analysis.​

    As he indicates, Goldberg is not new to the subject. (It's telling that those who have written about Saddam Hussein's support for jihadist terror are encouraging people to read the actual report for themselves.) Before the war, he wrote two articles about Iraq and terrorism and the IDA study confirms several elements of his reporting.

    In the first, Goldberg wrote that he learned about one al Qaeda connection “"while I was interviewing Al Qaeda operatives in a Kurdish prison in Sulaimaniya. There, a man whom Kurdish intelligence officials identified as a captured Iraqi agent told me that in 1992 he served as a bodyguard to Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden's deputy, when Zawahiri secretly visited Baghdad.”"

    His name was Qassem Hussein Mohammed. He told Goldberg “that his involvement in Islamic radicalism began in 1992 in Baghdad, when he met Ayman al-Zawahiri.

    Qassem said that he was one of seventeen bodyguards assigned to protect Zawahiri, who stayed at Baghdad's Al Rashid Hotel, but who, he said, moved around surreptitiously. The guards had no idea why Zawahiri was in Baghdad, but one day Qassem escorted him to one of Saddam's palaces for what he later learned was a meeting with Saddam himself.”

    When Goldberg first reported this it drew skepticism from intelligence officials who had long believed that a secularist like Saddam Hussein would not work with Islamic radicals like Zawahiri, now Osama bin Laden’s chief deputy. We now know from a captured Iraqi regime document dated March 18, 1993, that Zawahiri’s Egyptian Islamic Jihad had been receiving support from Saddam for at least two years.

    According to the study’s authors: “Saddam supported groups that either associated directly with al Qaeda -- such as the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, led at one time by bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al Zawahiri -- or that generally shared al Qaeda's stated goals and objectives.”

    Goldberg also reported extensively on the links between Saddam’s regime and al Qaeda affiliates in Kurdistan.

    Kurdish culture, he wrote:

    has traditionally been immune to religious extremism. According to Kurdish officials, Ansar al-Islam grew out of an idea spread by Ayman al-Zawahiri, the former chief of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and now Osama bin Laden's deputy in Al Qaeda. "There are two schools of thought" in Al Qaeda, Karim Sinjari, the Interior Minister of Kurdistan's Democratic Party-controlled region, told me. "Osama bin Laden believes that the infidels should be beaten in the head, meaning the United States. Zawahiri's philosophy is that you should fight the infidel even in the smallest village, that you should try to form Islamic armies everywhere. The Kurdish fundamentalists were influenced by Zawahiri."

    Kurds were among those who travelled to Afghanistan from all over the Muslim world, first to fight the Soviets, in the early nineteen-eighties, then to join Al Qaeda. The members of the groups that eventually became Ansar al-Islam spent a great deal of time in Afghanistan, according to Kurdish intelligence officials. One Kurd who went to Afghanistan was Mala Krekar, an early leader of the Islamist movement in Kurdistan; according to Sinjari, he now holds the title of "emir" of Ansar al-Islam.

    In 1998, the first force of Islamist terrorists crossed the Iranian border into Kurdistan, and immediately tried to seize the town of Haj Omran. Kurdish officials said that the terrorists were helped by Iran, which also has an interest in undermining a secular Muslim government. "The terrorists blocked the road, they killed Kurdish Democratic Party cadres, they threatened the villagers," Sinjari said. "We fought them and they fled."​

    Among the Islamists in Kurdistan at the time was a fledgling terrorist outfit known as the Islamic Resistance Organization (TK) of Kurdistan. The Iraqi regime moved quickly to develop a relationship with a group that could undermine the strength of the two Kurdish parties in northern Iraq. According to a captured document, the Iraqi regime began to provide "“financial and moral”" support to individual members of the group and decided it would seek a more formal relationship if the group increased in number and strength. Members of the IRO would later join with other jihadists to form Ansar al Islam in early September 2001 and would play host to hundreds of al Qaeda fighters fleeing the battle in Afghanistan. Saddam Hussein supported them.

    Two additional notes. In February 5, 2003, ABC News ran a critique of Colin Powell's presentation at the United Nations and included an interview with Mullah Krekar, mentioned as the emir of Ansar al Islam in Goldberg's original report. The ABC story took Krekar at his word when he disclaimed any cooperation with Saddam Hussein and even said he wanted to overthrow the Iraqi regime. But then he made a mistake.

    Krekar was asked about Abu Wael, the man Goldberg reported was a senior Iraqi Intelligence official. "I know Abu Wael for 25 years," Krekar said. "And he is in Baghdad. And he is an Arabic member of our shura, our leadership council also." That part of the interview, reflected in a transcript, never made air. The interview took place in early 2003 -- just months before the invasion. Why was Abu Wael in Baghdad?

    A detained Ansar al Islam terrorist named Rebwar Mohammed Abdul told a reporter from the Los Angeles Times that he had heard about Abu Wael directly from Mullah Krekar. Abdul denied any personal knowledge of a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda, but added an interesting detail. "I never talked to Wael but I saw him three times in meetings with Mullah Krekar. The mullah told us that Wael was a friend of his for 23 years and that they had met in Baghdad while Wael was an intelligence officer."

    Consider the evidence. Abu Wael was in Baghdad six weeks before the Iraq war began. The spiritual leader of Ansar al Islam has apparently admitted that Abu Wael was an officer in Iraqi intelligence. Numerous individuals with firsthand knowledge of the Iraq-Ansar relationship have independently reported that Abu Wael works for both the Islamist group and Iraqi intelligence. And we have intercepts of Iraqi Intelligence officials offering support to Ansar al Islam.

    Perhaps it was with this evidence in mind that Le Monde, in a separate article on June 27, 2005, wrote (without attribution) that Ansar al Islam "was founded in 2001 with the joint help of Saddam Hussein--who intended to use it against moderate Kurds--and Al-Qaeda, which hoped to find in Kurdistan a new location that would receive its members."[/rquoter]
     
  11. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    10,261
    Hardly.

    I quote the Washington Post discussing the findings of a Pentagon Report and a MSNBC article that is sourced. In rejoinder, you offer a Weekly Standard article of second hand news, innuendo, and deliberate confusion.
     
  12. ymc

    ymc Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,969
    Likes Received:
    36
    Tell me where I said Japan was a very volatile place post-war?

    I was questioning the zero death claim rimrocker made. I found it very hard to believe. But at least he has a source to support this statement.
     
  13. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    10,261
    Here... post #6 of this thread...

     
  14. bucket

    bucket Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,724
    Likes Received:
    60
    In any event, saying, "Make it one hundred... That’d be fine with me as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed" is itself pretty disingenuous, as it represents an option that really isn't on the table. I haven't seen anything to suggest that radical Islamic fundamentalists are going to stop attacking our troops while they remain in Iraq.
     
  15. London'sBurning

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    4,817
    Patton is rolling over in his grave.
     
  16. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,157
    Likes Received:
    10,261
    Hey, I'm just trying to make sense of what he said.
     
  17. cson

    cson Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,797
    Likes Received:
    29
    And yet, this thread goes on for 3 pages. You are not responsible for what you say, just what your preacher says. Mmmm tasty. ;)
     
  18. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,424
    Likes Received:
    9,324
    nice to see some folks working to correct the lie.

    [rquoter]What do Bogart, Kirk, & McCain Have in Common?
    Posted by: Matt Lewis at 9:42 AM


    News flash: Humphrey Bogart never said, "play it again, Sam," Captain Kirk never uttered, "Beam me up, Scotty" -- and John McCain never promised a hundred year war!

    ... The danger, of course, is that everybody thinks Bogie and Kirk said those now famous lines. And if we're not careful, the public may also mistakenly believe McCain said he wanted a hundred year war. As Churchill may, or may not have said: "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."

    Of course, this lie isn't just spreading itself. The fact that Barack Obama and Howard Dean continue to intentionally mischaracterize John McCain's statements -- and mislead the public -- obviously creates a level of difficulty that may other misquoted victims haven't had to confront (the obvious exception is Al Gore -- the man who "invented" the internet).

    This type of negative politics might be expected of Howard Dean, but Barack Obama claims to offer a new type of politics. Yet he's playing the same old partisan games of mischaracterization. (Will "hundred yearing" somebody replace "swiftboating" as jargon used by the media to describe an unfair or untrue attack? It's doubtful).

    John McCain is actually the one who has run a new type of campaign. And my hope is that McCain's reputation as a "straight-talker" -- and an honest broker -- will help inoculate him from these tawdry attacks. I also hope that the emergence of YouTube, as well as a more informed public, will serve to set the record straight in a way that wasn't possible in the past.

    Still, I fear this could stick. It's easy to say McCain wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years. That fits on a bumper sticker. But explaining the truth takes at least a paragraph. As P.T. Barnum may have said, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people." [/rquoter]
     
  19. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,804
    Likes Received:
    3,709
    when does obama say that mccain wants the war to last 100 years? what's dishonest or just plain stupidity from the republicans as usual is the complaint from mccain's camp. mccain was an idiot for making that comment, he should deal with it.
     
  20. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    18,100
    Likes Received:
    447
    Is that why you can't use real ones?
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now