Chuck Hayes vs. Winning

Scola got pulled one time for not catching an AB pass when he penetrated and dished to Scola.

Offensively he had a good game, he must have blown alot of switches on D, or got outmuscled for some rebounds.

 

I love Chuck Hayes's hustle and hard work. He seems like a genuinely good person, but he should not be starting in the NBA and seeing significant mins for any team in the league. Scola should start immediately. To me he gives you everything Hayes does plus an offensive game. From what I've seen and heard, Carl Landry is basically a better, more athletic version of Hayes.

 

I'm beginning to think that if adelman sees that scola, along with brooks, could be the consistent 3rd and 4th scorer, this team will be set. I mean there are many times were hayes does smart defensive plays, but at many of those times we got a team that can't produce any offense from it, and we go through terrible droughts when we should be going for the NECK . I mean that is what seperates an elite team from the rest.

I don't think we should be fooled by the present starting lineup whenever they are shooting well because its just not going to be an everynight thing. But we all see and know the obvious, the bench coming off is the most consistent. So yeah maybe scola getting increasing minutes off of the bench can be an option, but if they dig themselves in a drought again before that, they got to think, why be in that position in the first place? I think Hayes would be great coming off the bench, along with special defensive assignment at times. Not to mention rafer and brooks playing together is clicken (Brooks along with anyone for that matter).

If this mangement doesn't realize this, chances are we will be in the same position as last year, oppurtunities was there with wasted talent on the bench. How much can you expect from people who are not extremely great scorers in an offensive strategy like this? Akward, bad luck Houston.

 

Scola and Landry's defense isnt close to what Hayes brings

 

This is the biggest duuuuuuuuuuh statement ever.

Chuck Hayes is not the problem. He is probably the best dollar for dollar player on our team. He plays great with Yao because he makes up for Yao's biggest weakness - quickness. At this point Scola is fool's gold. His game looks big, but his impact is small. If anyone needs to be out of the lineup for subpar offense it's Battier. He has regressed a lot in my opinion, and he needs to be a part of a trade.

 

Scola's defense is underrrated. He's still improving and playing better as time passes. The best attributes he brings are a good mid-range shot and hustling for rebounds and the loose ball. IMO, he helps out Yao more because he can make shots and make the opposition respect his high and low post game.

 

I really like Chuck Hayes and I love his defense and smart play.

However, when we play with Chuck, we play like 4 on 5 on offense. When we play Scola, we play 5 on 5 on both offense and defense. Scola's midrange jumpers are pretty deadly, and he is a smart player as well.

 

Agree, he deserves the paid

 

Rocket's defense is a lot worse without Hayes on the floor. He creates a lot 2nd chances too. When Rafer and Battier are hitting their shots, Chuck needs to be on the floor to make the team more balanced.

 

Sigh.

Scola did fine, more or less when he was in there. And yes, Scola's +/- was adversely affected by Nate Robinson's bombing. He's very useful when he's hitting that jumper, which has been ultra-consistent lately. He only had one of his "handsy" fouls yesterday, which is an improvement.

The part to look for would be the end of the 3rd-beginning of the 4th (when Yao was taken out and Scola was in for him). Randolph, Lee, and Curry were taking it to Scola and Hayes. My eyes saw what Adelman saw -- Scola was the one out of position (both rebounds and rotating over, specifically to Marbury iirc), which is why Yao came back in about a minute into the 4th quarter after only sitting about a minute at the end of the 4th quarter.

The Rockets scored 75 points in Hayes' 36 minutes, right on pace for 100 points (we scored 101). Particularly last night, I thought Hayes was very good (for him) on offense. He finished his 2 layups, and had a couple of nice passes from both the high post and as "extra passes" to open shooters that led to outside shots. The offense stalled in the first few minutes 3rd quarter with Hayes in the game, but they figured things out. I would say Battier was a much bigger liability on that side of the ball last night. I really liked the Rafer/Brooks backcourt teamed with the Yao/Chuck frontcourt, and Luther/Shane/Bonzi in the game depending on who the other team is playing.

There are two sides to the basketball game, and I think Scola's defense is pretty similar to Hayes' offense at this point. Calling Hayes 4-on-5 offense while Scola is 5 on 5 defense is silly.

I like Scola, and he's ahead of where I thought he would be (I thought he'd be an Oberto timeline). But he's still not better than Hayes at this point, and people calling for him to start over Hayes are ignoring half of the game.

 

You are lost if you truly believe Scola gives you the same things that Hayes does on defense. At this point I would say Scola's defense is at the same level as Hayes' offense.

Scola will be the Rox starting PF at some point, but he is not ready. He still tries to take too many charges and gets bad blocking fouls way too often. Plus his post defense is non existent and most importantly, he has not figured out how to rotate on D to protect Yao from silly fouls.

There was a play against the Knicks where Yao was badly beaten by Curry. Hayes flew over and fouled Curry before Yao could. Yao looked over at Hayes and basically thanked him for doing what he did. Thats why Hayes is in the game.

If all goes well, Scola and Landry will one day take the bulk of the PF minutes for this team. But if you ask them to do that tomorrow, that would be a big mistake. Adelman clearly thinks Hayes helps this team win. He doesnt owe Chuck anything, and knows Chuck is terrible for Adelman's offense. Yet still, Hayes plays big minutes. Maybe you should trust the coach knows more about basketball then you do.

 

This is nonsense. All of you people claiming that Chuck is the "worst PF in the NBA" and a "marginal scrub" don't have a shred of basketball intelligence. As far as you can tell, if a player isn't draining jump shots or grabbing 10+ rebounds every game then he lacks talent.

Chuck is one of the top 5 best post defenders in the league. His defensive contributions cannot be underestimated. All you see is that he's short for a PF: the reality is that he possesses a very unique combination of raw strength and quickness that is often a mismatch in his favor on the defensive end. Most teams keep trying to post him up, run their offense through his man and as a result fail on offense and end up giving up extra possessions to the Rockets. He is too strong for most forwards and centers to post up, and he is too quick for most to get by -- even most perimeter players are surprised when they try to beat him off the dribble and they can't. There was a stat durvasa posted the other day about net possessions created per game, and Chuck was one of the top 5 in the league. Having a guy who can actually generate extra offensive possessions for you is just as important as having guys who can drain open jumpshots.

In my opinion, Chuck should've been a candidate for DPOY last year, even more so than Battier. And he started the entire season for a team that won 52 games. The few games he did miss due to injury, the Rockets struggled. If you think that was a coincidence, you're sady mistaken.

Now I'm all for Scola and I think that with time he can develop into a starter given his go-to offensive skills. I'm on record here saying that I hope Scola eventually gets the starting job, because even for a rookie, his own net contributions and +/- have been outstanding. But all of you people trying to denigrate Chuck's basketball skills are utterly clueless. You need to start learning how to watch games like intelligent fans instead of just looking at who's getting buckets all day.

 

You think so, but you are wrong - as much as you condescendingly "sigh". (You are one of the intelligent posters here, but you were an even better poster when you focused more on providing facts, aelliott style; at some point you unfortunately decided to take a page out of the SamFisher handbook on trying to be condescending, fortunately not nearly as mean-spirited.)

No, it is not. Hayes' offense is basically non-existent when T-Mac is not feeding him extremely easy layups. Scola is not as familiar with the other players and the NBA game yet as Hayes, who has been with the other guys for a couple of years now. So yes, Scola might sometimes not be in the exact place he is expected to be, but I think it is obvious that Scola is the more complete player, and that, the more familiar he becomes with his teammates, and the more comfortable he becomes playing in the NBA, his minutes should increase and Hayes' minutes need to decrease slightly. Again, I like Hayes a lot, he hustles, seems to be a great guy, and he makes smart plays, but he is a complete non-factor on offensive plays, the opposition can double-team Yao more easily because they don't even respect Hayes at all. When Scola is in and they double Yao, Yao has another option to kick the ball out to, and Scola's 15-footers are pretty deadly. Scola's defense can improve, but he is not a non-factor on defense, he is quite active and people cannot ignore him as a defender as much as they can ignore Hayes on offense.

It is an obvious trade-off between better defense and better offense. I don't really care who starts, but I believe Scola should gradually be getting more minutes over Hayes, simply because he is the more talented player overall, and his overall contributions outweigh those of Hayes.

Then again, they may well play together in stretches (and they have been doing that), e.g. when Scola subs for Yao. I don't think we need a "who sucks more at what" debate, I think we can consider ourselves fortunate that we have both Hayes and Scola. Personally, I don't see PF as a problem position for us anymore.

I fully agree with your analysis. I think it's silly to argue for one of the two players by describing the other one as a "scrub". They both have unique strengths.

 

You really don't give Hayes enough credit. A player's contribution to the offense is more than just his scoring. Things like setting solid picks and cleaning up the offensive glass are also essential. Chuck does both of those very, very well. He's also a good enough passer that the Rockets often go to him at the high post to look for cutters. And the defense can't just ignore Hayes, because he's extremely intelligent when it comes to finding openings around the basket. Remember, Chuck was a member of the best starting 5 in the regular season last year. Perhaps Chuck's best work is on the defensive end, but saying that he's "a complete non-factor on offensive plays" is, with all due respect, nonsense.

 

That's a common misconception too. Just because Chuck isn't shooting doesn't mean he isn't contributing to the offense.

How many times do you see him set a screen and one of the guards come off of it for a jumper or a pass for a jumper. It's an under rated art form that Scola still gets called for moving screens on (which I think eventually he will figure out)

Also in this new offense he's much less of a liability on the offensive end. I don't know how many good passes he has had in the last two weeks. He may not be guarded when he's down low, but they have to at least be semi-close to him when he gets the ball in the high post.

Last year I would have said, yes, he wasn't involved much in the offense other than setting screens for Tracy... but this year he is moving within the confines of the offense and is able to contribute on the offensive end much more.

I agree. I even voted for Scola's minutes to increase. Eventually I think they will be splitting the PF time for most games and getting a couple of minutes on the floor together to give Yao a break.

Edit: Darn it someone beat me to posting again! I need to type faster... lol what the guy before me said.. I agree!

 

All these things are true, and much credit to Chuck for that, but my main concern is that our best player, Yao Ming, has a harder time on offense (in my opinion) when Hayes is in there because teams can double and front Yao without having to fear that our PF will punish them. When you have two guys swarming Yao, our PF will be open - you can use Yao as a decoy and pass the ball to Scola and he will score. You just cannot do the same with Chuck. After Scola will have scored twice or three times in a row on such possessions, teams must pick their poison - either stop doubling Yao - and then Yao can get to work - or keep doubling Yao, and Scola will keep punishing them.

 

you forget that he also had 6 TO's, randolph did.

 

The sigh was on the idea that YOU did not see him make any mistakes -- when Adelman pretty clearly hooked him a minute into the 4th quarter for making mistakes. If you want to take that up with the coach, be my guest.

Yes, it can improve, and you can make a good argument that Scola's defensive flaws are a lot more correctable than Hayes offensive flaws. I'd agree. It's a liability right now, though, and then you're on a DaDakota-Spanoulis argument that he should get more in game minutes to improve. I disagree; Van Gundy disagreed; Adelman disagrees.

Hayes isn't a non factor on offense either -- he's become an increasingly consistent finisher and has nearly doubled his assists from last year while actually slightly decreasing his turnovers in similar minutes. He may not be the most talented player, but he's a pretty good decision maker on the court; Adelman talked about how impressed he was with Hayes' passing ability in the preseason.

And people don't ignore Scola as a defender -- they exploit him. Since you seem to have a problem with my posting style (and, if you'd like to use the ignore button, be my guest), here are some numbers for you.

Chuck Hayes' offensive PER via 82games: 13.5
Luis Scola's defensive PER via 82games: 18.7

Hayes' offense is 1.5 "points" below the league average. Scola's defense is 3.7 "points" above the league average. Thus, the idea that Hayes offense is similar to wScola's defense isn't exactly crazy, even if you'd like to dismiss it as so.

 

True, Scola is better for taking pressure off of Yao on offense, but we shouldn't overlook the way Yao benefits from having Chuck on the floor with him on defense either. I think we can agree that both players are valuable and have their good qualities and weaknesses. It gets annoying when some people just look at the box score and think Chuck isn't contributing anything.