[Chronic]Spanoulis says he won't return to Rockets

My point was that anyone who actually believes he only had "ONE good international game" is completely ignorant of his Euro career.

This had nothing to do with comparing Parker to Spanoulis. Understand?

My point was how could he be the 7th best European player, and voted ahead for example of Parker (in Euro play only) if he ONLY played "ONE good international game" and that was put in the context of for his entire career by the poster SamFisher?

I think there has to be a certain point where people should be called out when they make statements that are absolutely blatantly false.

 

I wonder if his decision had something to do with the Rockets drafting another PG? Or maybe the Rockets drafted another PG because they knew this was happening... If I understand the sequence of events correctly, he was just mulling his options in Greece before draft day, now this... I think he saw any chance of playing fly out the window and add to that his homesickness and disdain for the U.S. and this is what you get. I just hope the Rockets can get out of the contract.

 

Things didn't work out in Houston as he expected for many reasons -we could blame him, the coaching or management staff. Facts say right now the Rocks have 5 pg's so they don't need him, they could easily use him as a trade filler for a starting pf. His new nba team can release him from his contract and free some cap space like clutch wrote in the main page, and he can go back home. I think that's the best scenario for everyone.

 

Yeah kid - one good international game that people saw. By people, I'm talking about Rockets fans - specifically his fanclub on this BBS - a dwindling number, to which you seem to be both the latest addition and a real standard bearer of, despite his momma crying routine. Not his greek chorus from back in Athens.

THe reason why I say this, is that this one good game, that people saw - (I highly doubt his bbs fanclub, yourself included was watching PAntha vs. CSK Moskva any more than it watched Greece vs. Spain for the world title in which he stunk himself off the courts - was continually cited by his fan club repeatedly as evidence of his awesomeness.

I can't tell you how many times when asshats like yourself would scream on this BBS - "I know he's awesome and will be a success, because I SAW IT IN THAT ONE GAME!"

Tell me, B-ball scientist, how many OTHER games of his did you see? Did you get game tapes expressed to you overnight in the B-ball scientist batcave/laboratory, where you conduct secret research, as how too pass off crap? Anyway, the answer is no, ergo One good international game.

Though I will admit - I did use his historically bad outside shooting and high turnover stats from his European pro career as evidence that he wasn't the dog's testicles, as stalwarts such as yourself would frequently insist.

I saw it differently - as one decent game in a tournament. It happens. See Pinckney, Ed.

Anyway, listen up kid, I have watched the Rockets for a long time. I have watched a lot of mediocre guards pass through the doors of the Summit/Compaq Center/Toyota Center. I have also seen a lot of medicore second round draft picks come and go.

In the grand scheme of things, I would rank Vasilis Spanoulis' Rockets peformance as somewhere in the realm of Connor Henry and Andre Turner. However, in terms of hype ratio (and I realize that a lot of this is the result of self-appointed "Scientists" and other internet whiners, and the natural hyperbole that is endemic to our age) his hype vs. production (or even visible potential, given his hysterically mediocre performance) - he amounts to an all-time great. A stereotypical Great White Hype, whose only contribution was nothing of substance. The guy made Moochie Norrislook like a future HOF.

You're the same nuthugger who kept telling us that Spanoulis was currently the best guard on the roster, right?

Not sure why I'm bothering. One simply can't argue with jock sniffing of that caliber.

Guess you'll have to find another team to follow now that he's gone

 

nice shot

 

i say good riddance he was just a drama queen that was the most overrated rocket since stromile swift..

 

"Though I will admit - I did use his historically bad outside shooting and high turnover stats from his European pro career as evidence that he wasn't the dog's testicles, as stalwarts such as yourself would frequently insist."


Here are his "historically bad outside shooting stats from his pro career" prior to the NBA - you know the one's you used.

1999-2000 season Greek B League (rookie season) at age 17 23.5%

2000-2001 season Greek B League at age 18 25.8%

2001-2002 season Greek A League (rookie season) at age 19 16.7%

2002-2003 season Greek A League at age 20 27.8%

2003-2004 season Greek A League at age 21 36.1

2004-2005 season Greek A League at age 22 37.8%

2004-2005 ULEB Cup at age 22 40.0%

2004-2005 season total at age 22 38.3%

2005-2006 season Greek League A at age 23 36.7%

2005-2006 season Euroleague (rookie season) at age 23 36.8%

2005-2006 season total at age 23 36.7%

Nope, didn't show any improvement at all. Had horrible 3 point shooting numbers. In fact couldn't buy a 3 after age 21.

In fact from age 21 (or junior season in college for American players, you know just to put things in an American perspective)) onward
Spanoulis shot 36.1%, 37.8%, 40%, 36.7%, and 36.8% from 3 point range. That certainly does not make him great by any means at outside shooting, but if this is "historically bad" then I guess Tracy McGrady is the worst outside shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

BTW, Spanoulis had 2.7 turnovers in while playing in 2005-2006 before joining the Rockets. That isn't anything to brag about, but since when is 2.7 turnovers for the team's leading scorer a "historically bad number"?

If it is, then Yao Ming is the all time greatest "turnover machine" of the game.


Thank you for so dissing my name of Bball Scientist, by showing that you actually use no facts to form your arguments or to base your judgments and to also show that I myself do prefer to actually use facts.

 

LAME

 

Dang Sam... that one has to set a single post hate record. You've outdone yourself. Children could be reading.

I do complement you on your avoidence of all those ****ing astrieks in the process.

 

Damn, I didn't know you were capable of typing this much. I'm equally as impreseed you know what a nuthugger and jock-sniffer is.

You're one metrsexual dude.

 

I think it had a lot to do with the Mike James trade.

 

Whoops, B-Ball scientist, looks like you skipped a few stats.

2006 World Championships 25.5%

2006-2007 Houston Rockets 17%

I guess he's just in a 1 year slump.

I notice you also didn't contest his turnovers - I take it by only addressing the shooting issue - you concede that pretty much everything else I said is true? Answer the question?

Anyway you did not answer my question, B-Ball Scientist.

How many of his non-Rockets games did even a first class, hardcore Spanoulis nut rider like you watch aside from that one game vs. the US?

 

2.7 turnovers as the team's leading scorer at Panathinaikos in Euroleague play.

Are you actually going to argue that 2.7 turnovers is bad for the leading scorer on the team? Like I said if you are then I will be expecting about 500 posts from you calling Yao Ming the world's greatest "turnover machine" otherwise you know you might just appear to look biased.

Because remember you said "historically bad turnovers" based on his pro career play you predicted that before he played for the Rockets he would "suck." Suddenly playing pre-season NBA (should I even mention this is exhibition play?) = "based on his historically bad pro career."

37% to 40% 3 point shooting since age 21 during his Euro play.

Also it's funny but for some reason Spanoulis not developing the outside shot in Europe until age 21 seems held in a different standard than an American player in college not developing it until his junior year. Why? Greek League is much higher than NCAA division I in competitive level and the international 3 point line is 9 inches further away than the college 3 point line is.

Hey, let's just convince the whole forum that Aaron Brooks is a horrible 3 point shooter because you know those college stats from 3 must mean nothing, after all think of this, 9 inches further than in Greece against inferior competition. And Brooks only shoots like 5% higher than Spanoulis under those circumstances?

So since Spanoulis is "historically bad" at outside shooting for his PRO career then Brooks must be at best a lousy outside shooter, since he only shot about 5% better against inferior competition 9 inches closer to the basket during his AMATEUR career. Looks like stats guru Morey has once again used a different calculator than Sam "Bobby" Fisher.

Since you have labeled this as "historically bad outside shooting" the onus is on YOU to prove what you posted, not the other way around.

BTW an entire season of shooting outweighs shooting during a tournament at the world championships?

BTW entire seasons in Europe with hundreds of 3's attempted outweighs a season of total scrub bench garbage time minutes with what about 20 3's attempted all year in Houston?


If you do not understand this most basic concept of stats evaluations then let me explain it to you. Anyone on this forum could take any 20 shot stretch in 3 attempts by T-Mac, Alston, James, Head, etc. and come up with an eerily similar percentage to Spanoulis' 20 or so attempts average.

That is why HUNDREDS of 3's attempted over years in Europe is the baseline number. Ever hear of something called sample size or is that a foreign concept to you? Also changing your argument mid-stream from using 3 numbers before he joined the Rockets to predict that he would be the ultimate example of "sucked" to now using his NBA stats doesn't make you look smarter. It makes you look like a poorly versed political pundit. Or in layman's terms a flip-flopper at whatever suites your own behest.


BTW, Spanoulis led his team in scoring in Euroleague at 14.6 points per game in 28.8 minutes of playing time, coming off the bench, that's the team that was the 4th best team in all of Euroleague that year. How many top NBA teams are led by a scorer at 15 points a game? Or have the leading scorer play less than 30 minutes and come off the bench? The 3 time Euroleague MVP and 2 time Euroleague DPOY Papaloukas averages like 9 points per game in Euroleague. Do you understand the concept of context at all or is that also a foreign concept to you?

But hey, actually checking to find out the differences that stats in Euroleague mean as compared to stats in the NBA would actually require you to not automatically form your argument based on already knowing who does or who does not own "suckage" prior to actually knowing anything about said player because you are a brilliant talent evaluator and the Rockets entire management and entire scouting department, which spent 5 years scouting him (they said they scouted him since he was at Maroussi) and tons of money scouting Spanoulis, all know nothing. they love throwing millions of dollars away for nothing and wasting endless hours of time because they have nothing better to do for kicks.


You know everything about him because he shot 25% from 3 during the World Championships (the previous 5 years of Rocket scouting were simply invalid), yet any "nut hugger jock sniffer" knows nothing because they based it all on "ONE good international game". Of course the fact that you are using The World Championships as your argument to validate this while saying the game he played against the most talented team in the same tournament, which was Team USA doesn't count makes you, well, tell me do you know what the term hypocrisy means?

You know that's what made Spanoulis that "ONE good international game in his pro career". Not even the fact that he got a 3 year deal for $6 million from the Rockets BEFORE he ever even played that game, BEFORE. But of course since stats geek Morey signed off on the deal too BEFORE he even played that "ONE good international game in his pro career", it only further proves that whatever stats Morey looked at from Spanoulis' "historically bad pro career" must have been different from the ones you looked at SamFisher.

I mean hell $6 million for some 6-4 Greek point guard that when he signed the contract had actually NOT even played that "ONE good international game in his pro career" yet seems a bit frivolous doesn't it? Wouldn't that make the Moochie Norris, Kelvin Cato, and Mo Taylor contracts seem incredibly well thought out by comparison? But hey, even though Les Alexander swears that they use very advanced stats to base contracts offers on nowadays to prevent those previous fiascoes from happening again means nothing. In the case of Spanoulis they looked the other way and simply threw that all aside because they thought they might get some free Gyros out of it.

But hey, keep on arguing that it is everyone else who based everything on "ONE good international game" by actually using the argument that you know this is true because it flies in the face of what you used to judge "suckage," which was imaginary scouting like, hey I (SamFisher) know Greece league basketball sucks.

 

2.7 TOs in 29 minutes is very very high, no matter how much he is scoring.

 

Bootysniffing scientist, I didn't read your whole post because it was too long and started repeating itself

2.7 TO's against, what 2-3-4 assists was it? I don't feel like doing the math, and more importantly don't really care. Just like I didn't care on doing a post-mortem on Connor Henry's Rockets career (at the very least of course, he didn't whine like a b**** and go back to his mother, like a certain All I know is that his ratio in his pro career was not unlike his mediocre ratio during the WC's. Which is why the Rockets management is on public record as saying that he has historically had problems with turnovers.

Anyway you didn't answer my question, so I'm going to repeat it:

How many of his non-Rockets games did even a first class, hardcore Spanoulis nut rider like you watch aside from that one game vs. the US?

Maybe you did watch a bunch - which means you're a greek basketball fan who is trapped on the wrong BBS.

But as for the last line of your post which I happened to read on the way out, honestly, I don't need to look at spanoulis to know that Greek Basketball isn't that great, I can look at NBA scrubs like Mike Batiste who can't make it in the NBA and then go over and then become Greek league stars.


Spanoulis will be the next addition to this list, thank god. I just hope his jockrubbers will go with him and leave the rest of us Rockets fans alone.

 

Some things never change. Some people are never wrong. They downgrade anyone with an opinion different than their own. They only use statistical references to support their own limited and biased opinions and throw out all others as irrellevant. Everone else on the board is a wannabe jock and has nowhere near the superior intellect for the game that they have. I have always maintained there should be a place for these posters to go and battle it out with anyone who wants to waste their time. If you want to go try and win an argument with the great *****, call the thread "Stump ******" and anyone who thinks they can argue with a chair and win can have at it and leave the rest of us here having intelligent and meaningful discussions about the thread topic and not engaging in a flame war. Those wanting to enjoy the trainwreck can go jump in and ag the two combatants on. It's like watching Jerry Springer. You guys go at it and those that want to watch will sit and yell "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry". The rest of us will be checking out Sportscenter on another channell.

 

"2.7 TO's against, what 2-3-4 assists was it"


Apparently you didn't even take the time to find out that in Europe you only get an assist if the player catches the ball and then scores immediately, unlike how they are tallied in the NBA. Using the stats translation metrics Rafer Alston would average 4.1 assists per game in Europe based on 37.1 minutes per game, using the same rate that he assisted in the NBA last year and ADDING HIM 31% MORE assists because of easier competition. 4.1 assists at 37.1 MPG and Spanoulis averaged overall in 57 games in Europe in 2005-2006 3.5 assists per game in just 28.8 minutes per game of playing time.

Putting them both at 37.1 MPG Spanoulis would be at 4.5 assists per game, with Alston at 4.1 assists per game. Spanoulis is a better play maker based on Hollinger stats, what some call "geek boy Morey stats."

Papaloukas will lead all of Europe at about 4.5 assists or so with CSKA. You see in Europe assists are counted differently than they are in the NBA and players play much less minutes in Greek League as an example and the teams use much deeper rosters making the stats LOWER in Greek League, in fact John Hollinger even uses the stat of assist plus 31% for NBA, meaning even counting in the higher level of competition they will still average 31% MORE assists in the NBA than they did in Europe.

It is commonly accepted that 2 assists in the NBA equals 1 assist in Europe.


Spanoulis averaged 3.7 assists (led the the team) and 2.8 turnovers in the Greek League in 2006 for the team that won the Greek League and averaged 3.1 assists and 2.7 turnovers in the Euroleague.

The 3.7 assists were 3rd in EUROPE, THIRD.

How many NBA teams have the top assist guy at 3.7? How many times does 3.7 assists equal 3rd in the NBA?

The stats are translated by all NBA scouts to this:

Greek League 28.8 minutes 7.4 assists 2.8 turnovers

Assist to Turnover Ratio 2.6 to 1

Euroleague 28.8 minutes 6.2 assists 2.7 turnovers

Assist to Turnover Ratio 2.3 to 1

Those numbers are Spanoulis' Euro assist numbers using the NBA method of counting assists instead of the Euro method. Perhaps you should find facts like these out before just jumping into a debate with your great basketball knowledge to be put on display for everyone.

Put it in perspective, Rafer Alston the so-called "safe ball handler" averaged 2.7 to 1 assists to turnovers with the Rockets in 2006 and 2.6 to 1 assists to turnovers with the Rockets in 2007.

Alston's average for the two NBA seasons was 2.7 to 1, while Spanoulis' average for the Greek League season and the Euroleague season (also 2 seasons) was 2.5 assists to 1 TO.

BTW that was a 57 game sample size for Spanoulis, 34 games in Greek League plus 23 games in Euroleague, 57 games, not "ONE good international game."

Now, using the Hollinger stats to translate his numbers based on 57 games at 28.8 minutes to the NBA. Keep in mind this is NOT using scrub garbage time erratic and sporadic PT he got in Houston, this is the number based on 57 games and 28.8 minutes, the stats that Morey would be using as well as all NBA scouts.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=131850

We've been focusing mostly on the collegians in this draft, as it was an unusually strong class of college players and a relatively weak one for foreign talent.

Nonetheless, there were a few first-rounders who came from overseas in Thursday's draft, and several more could be arriving on our shores via free agency this summer. Thus, it's time for me to bust out my system of Euroleague translations.

There's a very predictable relationship between a player's stats in Europe and what they'll be in the NBA, one that shows surprisingly little variation between players. Those who make the jump from the Euroleague (the highest level of European basketball) to the NBA can expect the following:

• their scoring rate to decrease by 25 percent;
• their rebound rate to increase by 18 percent (there are more missed shots to grab over here);
• their assist rate to increase by 31 percent (their scorers are stingy on assists);
• their shooting percentage to drop by 12 percent; and
• overall, their PER drops by 30 percent.

So knowing that, here's some translated stats from the key foreigners in the draft, and then those from free agency. And before we start, note that several draft picks -- Yi Jianlian, Petteri Koponen, Kyrylo Fesenko, Sun Yue, Giorgos Printezis, Renaldas Seibutis, Brad Newley, Milovan Rakovic and Stanko "Obama" Barac -- didn't play in the Euroleague last year, so I have no numbers for them.


Lior Eliyahu (14.8 pts/40, 11.4 reb/40, 48.7 FG percent, 15.18 PER)
After a very strong European campaign, the 6-8 Israeli forward is undoubtedly ready to ply his trade in the NBA. Eliyahu's rights are owned by the Houston Rockets, and hopefully they won't make the same mistake they did with Vassilis Spanoulis a year ago and just have him spotting up in the corner all year -- Eliyahu didn't make a single 3 in Euroleague play. But he's an adept slasher, and he's only 21.


"their assist rate to increase by 31 percent (their scorers are stingy on assists)"


Okay now using the SAME minutes that Rafer Alston got in 2006-2007 and comparing it based on Alston's PT to Spanoulis also at Alston's PT using the Euro year 2005-2006 of 57 games played by Spanoulis, not "ONE good international game," you get:

Rafer Alston Hollinger numbers

37.1 MPG
5.4 APG
2.1 TOPG
2.6 to 1 assist to turnover ratio

Vassilis Spanoulis Hollinger numbers

37.1 MPG
5.8 APG (Rafer Alston had 5.4 in same PT)
3.2 TOPG (Yao Ming had 3.5 TO's per game)
1.8 Assist to Turnover Ratio (Luther Head had 1.4 to 1)


In case you were unaware in Hollinger's 2006-2007 season outlook predictions for PER and Hollinger numbers, Spanoulis ranked about 50 players higher than Alston did.

Also the "safe on turnovers" Luther Head had an assist to turnover ratio of 1.4 assists to 1 turnovers for Hollinger. While "the turnover machine" Spanoulis is at 1.8 to 1 using Hollinger stats.

These are the Hollinger assists stats for Spanoulis using 37.1 MPG playing time minutes like Alston:

37.1 MPG
5.8 APG (Rafer Alston had 5.4 in same PT)
3.2 TOPG (Yao Ming had 3.5 TO's per game)
1.8 Assist to Turnover Ratio (Luther Head had 1.4 to 1)

 

That's true my friend, at the end of the day all we have is the truth:

Spanoulis sucked with the Rockets and then quit on them.​

That's it, and that's not debatable in any sense. And that's the truth that should be relevant to Rockets fans.

As far as I'm concerned, as this is a Rockets BBS, that should pretty much close the book on him as a topic of discussion, and open the book on him as a negative metaphor.

 

Bball,

Arguing with Sam is a waste of time, trust me I know, but I admire B-Ball Scientist because he is not name calling, and is truly attempting to engage Sam in an honest discussion.

B-Ball, there is no winning this argument, Sam has his opinions and you yours....and they are all just opinions......

Let's just see what happens in the V-Span situation, I still think Morey will force him to Houston, at least that is what Feigan is saying in his blog

"As I've said, I imagine they will continue to try to convince him to come back"

I think this situation is far from over, either as forcing him back or trading him away....anything that helps the Rockets is ok with me.

DD

 

I don't know what there is left to argue about. Spanoulis was here. He sucked. He quit. End of argument.

Citing his Greek stats now and trying to explain how awesome he is shows where one's priorities lie. And the answer is not on a Rockets BBS