ron doesn't do those things b/c the coaches dont' ask him to do those things b/c the coaches know he can't do those things. adelman is not going to ask ron to do things he can't do on a consistent basis. and before this year, since when has tracy been labeled as a guy who doesn't play within a team concept? it's so easy for you to forget that just last yr we had one of the hardest-working teams in this league that had the best team chemistry with one of the biggest hearts on displayed in the history of the league. and that was WITH tracy.
What exactly is his "style"? I don't get it. You said earlier in the thread that Kobe Bryant was a superstar. How has his "style" been any different than McGrady's? Has he suddenly become unselfish now that they're winning? Or does adding Pau Gasol have something to do with it. By the same logic that vilifies McGrady, you're committing yourself to an inconsistent stance on Kobe Bryant if you have already conceded that he's a superstar. Was Kobe not a superstar those years they got bounced post Shaq?
yes i do. bob sura, jon barry, yao... all have said those things in regards to tmac BEFORE this year. watch the series v. the jazz last yr. that team showed more heart and resiliency than i have ever seen.
Cabbage just said he is doing the same things, when clearly he is not. Are you serious? He has been labled that his entire career, Toronto, Orlando, Houston....come on...this is laugh out loud funny. Oh last year, you mean the year that Tmac was pissing and moaning about running Adelman's offense and not getting enough touches, and then goes out with an injury, and the team starts to gel without him, running the system? That last year? DD
Are you seriously insinuating that any coach in there right mind would assign Ron Artest with the same playmaking responsibilities that Tracy had? Then what is it? We've had virtually the same team success with the two healthy with a much worse roster. How is that an indictment on McGrady. What are these other things he was supposed to be doing in years past? I asked you in the other thread - was he supposed to be letting David Wesley get ISOs? There's only two instances of a team winning a title without a superstar yet you somehow continue to claim that that is the formula for success. I can understand blind optimism in the sense of accepting that we don't have a superstar now, but when you try to retroactively assign that critique on McGrady's tenure with the team, you aren't being honest intellectually.
when was he labeled a selfish teammate in toronto when he was playing there? are you serious? he was labeled as a quitter and lazy in his last yr in toronto, not as a selfish teammate. and before this year, tracy's been a great citizen here in houston. there's a reason morey (forgive his mind) refused to trade him for kobe brother. THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY. he moaned/whined about his touches last yr? i clearly don't remember that. i think you're mistaking it for THIS YEAR (again). in fact, he had THE BEST START to the reg. season last yr UNDER adelman. he thought he was doing TOO MUCH last yr and during the injury, he felt he needed to DO LESS, which he did when he came back. once again DD, you're letting this year blind you again.
Ah, real basketball discussion, ..I love it. Kobe has been a VERY selfish ball hogging player for years, and he pissed and moaned and could not win crap....just like TMac....but these last 2 years, Kobe has changed, he now plays a lot more within the system, and let's his teamates make a lot of plays for him, and his team is much better because of it. I was hoping that Tmac would do this once Adelman came on board, but last year and this year he resisted......if he ever comes back as a Rocket I will continue to hope the light bulb goes off and he learns to fully trust his teamates to make decisions with the ball.....that is when he will truly go to the next level as a basketball player. yes and yes....both, they are related, Kobe is playing differently. Is your argument that Tmac would make the same tranistion if he had talented players around him? Becuase this year...before he went out for good, he resisted....remember the "More touches" interview? No, he was not....I think he was a great offensive player but not a Superstar player. You know this brings up an interesting point......Shaq was a Superstar player when Kobe first won........and clearly Yao is NOT Shaq. DD
I love how people say that when they just have a different opinion, and coming from a guy whose handle is t-mac1...priceless. At least you can admit TMac has been rough in Toronto and Orlando, many of his fans, like you, can not. BTW - Lebron is the best player in the NBA and it is not even close.....he elevates his team more than any other player...he ...IS a Superstar. DD
You switch Tmac for Kobe on the Lakers team that won 3 and I bet they still win. Having a team focused around a bigtime scoring wing isn't necesarily bad, but you have to have a team around them for it to work. Tmac didn't have that...at least in his prime years. I would agree that with this team where we have like 7 or 8 guys who can score points in bunches that his style of controlling the ball doesn't work well. But just because it doesn't work well here doesn't mean it would never work anywhere.
Not sure about that....they MIGHT have won, but it would be becaue of Shaq. Tmac is not, nor has he ever been as efficient as Kobe, especially at attacking the basket. It is just not true....Tracy can say..."If I played with Shaq" but those words ring hollow if you really look at it objectively. Meh, not sure why we are going round and round, no one is going to convince the other and it is pointless....Tmac is out........and the team is better because of it...... GO ROCKETS ! DD
sorry DD, i gotta stop you on this one. kobe bryant has NOT let his teammates do more of the plays for him. he just has BETTER teammates to work with. BIG difference. here's the stats: 1) his usage rating this year is 33, the 3rd highest of his career, which means he's still dominating the ball A TON. but he can b/c he's arguably the best player in the L. 2) he's taking 22 shots a game. the next highest, pau with 12, and pau shoots 10% greater than kobe. nobody else shoots more than 10 shots. so it's not like he's letting others do more. i mean, pau with 12 shots on mostly single coverage? really? kobe plays the same way, but with better teammates -> better team.
Naw, I don't think they win 3 because as much as we don't like to admit it....T-Mac is not the closer that Kobe is. I think they could have gotten a title, but Kobe has shown that he will bring it every night and bust his balls each offseason to get better. I don't see Tracy doing that, and it takes a lot of that to win 3 titles in a row. You can't get complacent....
A legitimate point, but Kobe is a lot better than TMac ever was.....so even if you or I is right about the way they play...it is not germaine as they are not equals. And Kobe is a closer.....someone who the ball ends up in as a finisher.....it is a far different role that what Tmac was doing as the initiator. DD
um...b/c tracy was our best player during his houston year and i joined this forum kinda late... i'm sure if i had an olajuwon moniker, i'd still defend tracy in regards to these "bad arguments." i've never argued with you when people said he sucked this year. i've never argued with those who said he acted unprofessionally this year. i've never argued with those who said we're better without tmac THIS YEAR. but i will argue when people make claims like tmac is selfish, doesn't make this team better... those claims are straight up absurd.
You don't think it has just a little bit to do with the fact that his teammates are actually good now? Just a little bit. How did he resist last year? And he sucked this year. This year is a moot point. You don't find it odd that that comment came after another game where he sucked? It completely contradicted his standard comments of wanting to do less and be a facilitator. In fact, Tracy has always made it known how much he would like to do less. Hell, when we got Artest, one of the biggest fears here was that Tracy would be lazy and try to do nothing on the court. That "more touches" comment was a pretty isolated incident especially in the context of his frustrations. Didn't you say earlier in this thread that he was a superstar? So did he suddenly just now become a superstar now that they have Gasol and are good?
Well, they were better with him before, based upon their record with and without him, but one has to wonder how much of that was because he was doing all the intiating, and maybe if the rest of the team was trusted more they would have been just as successful? Look at Rafer, once Tmac was gone, his assists went up a lot.....could he have sustained it? Who knows, but it is a small glimpse of what people like me are wondering about. DD
that's fine. but you said tmac's "style" isn't conducive to winning, which is false. tmac's style is the same style as kobe, lebron, dominique wilkins...as other great wing players. and with the team we had, that was the right style to play with. again, i agree with you when you said tracy shouldn't shoot as much with THIS TEAM this year and i'm sure he wouldn't. and we wouldn't know that b/c tracy was never healthy.
in 05-06, we had about 30 games without tmac. they SUCKED then. but i'm sure if we gave that team artest, scola, landry, that team would win about 60% too without tmac THAT YEAR. talent matters in this league too you know.
If you are saying that is the reason he is trusting them more, then sure, I could see where that matters. You don't recall the Tmac b****ing about the new offense early last year, then getting injured and Adelman saying screw it, we are gonna run my stuff...then they took off? Maybe, I just take him at his word, he wanted more touches.....but I can concede that some of it might be frustration due to his knee. I think he became a Superstar in these last 2 years.....hey, it took Hakeem 11 years to trust his teamates.... I think the bottom line Cabbage is that we are not on the same plane in discussing the team, you and I view it completely differently, and we have different definitions of Superstar. We just ain't gonna agree. DD
