Durvasa, All your points are dead on. But the #1 need on this team is shooting. I'm fine with Brewer, and I think he will be a very good addition to our team, as long as we get a big time shooter/scorer. But I don't want to just add Brewer to the same cast and expect all of a sudden we are going to compete with the top tier teams. We are going to need a definite 3rd scoring option before we can go there. Even if you are looking at points per possession, we are still top 10. Where are we at offensive rating? We are at the very bottom. Realistically, we are not going to be a run and gun Phoenix team. That style of play goes away from our strength. We want to be able to play well enough both offensively and defensively to control the tempo of the game. With Yao, and especially as McGrady gets older, we are going to lean more towards a half-court team that runs when we get opportunity turnovers. With that in mind, it even emphasizes more the need for great outside shooting, which is our BIGGEST weakness. Like I say, the defense could be improved upon. But the shooting HAS to be improved upon for us to compete for a title.
No, I am implying the chances of him being a bust are small in comparison with the other players being picked after #7 in the first round. And you are implying that he's not even first round material. And you are implying that the greatest need on this team is for more defense, rebounding, and ball handling. I am implying that the greatest need is SHOOTING. I've said it a hundred times. I'm all for Brewer. I'd take him over Carney. But we've got to get a big time 3rd scorer. If we take Brewer, where are we going to get that 3rd scorer? I am implying 3 things: 1. Efficient Shooting in the form of a perimeter scorer is our biggest need. 2. J.J. is the best perimeter shooter in this draft and the best shooter to come into the NBA since Ray Allen so he fits the bill and would have a great chance of being successful with us, filling our biggest need. 3. I love Brewer but if we draft him, we CANNOT rely on him to be the 3rd scoring option on this team. We need to have another deal to bring in Mike James or somebody that can light it up efficiently as our 3rd go to guy. Anybody in this draft could be a bust, gucci. Knowing that, J.J. is probably as low a risk as we can get seeing as how he lit it up for 4 years in the NCAA, against the top tier teams, who were all gunning to stop him. And he is more than just a straight shooter. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to put up 28 ppg. If he were just a straight up shooter, he would be second round fodder like Novak and Pittsnoggle, or even undraftable because of his size and other supposed deficiencies. He's gonna go at worst in the top 15 of the first round. He is more than just a shooter.
jopatmc- Don't be foolish, where in any of my posts do I imply that JJ is not first round material? I would agree that our greatest need is shooting, but here is the thing: The rule of picking this high in drafts is that you DO NOT DRAFT FOR NEED. You can find shooting through FA and trades, we have seen this for ourselves, finding a player who is versatile may not be so easy. You're assuming that Brewer cannot be that 3rd scorer. Both Josh Howard and Tayshaun Prince are the 3rd scorers for 2 of the Top 3 teams in the NBA, despite being mediocre shooters. But we can automatically rely on JJ Redick to be the 3rd scoring option? jopatmc- Maybe you could fill me in on what other things JJ Redick can do outside of his shooting that the 2rpg 2apg 1spg doesn't suggest.
J.J. is a scorer. When they put a blanket on him, he is going to take the ball down to the FT line, and get off that little sneaky jump shot. And he is smart, he is going to make the right pass. He is going to be efficient with the basketball and low turnover. Offensively, J.J. will bring much more than just standing at the 3 line. If you watched him in college, he was all over the court, shaking loose to receive the ball. He can handle, he can pass, and he can shoot. No, he isn't going to give us a lot of rebounding. We shouldn't need rebounding from him if McGrady, Yao, and our PF are doing their jobs. He is much more offensively than just a spot up flinger. He has high bball iq and on the ball skills as well as off the ball skills. And his iq is what is going to help him on the defensive end to make good decisions and gamble at the right times, etc. etc. etc. No, he's not a lock down defender. But he is a great +/- player with very refined offensive skills, which is one of the things we need. Sorry for being harsh on the comment about him being a 2nd rounder. I'll take that back. Just frustrated over some of you guys microscopic view of JJ being nothing more than a spot up shooter that can't get his shot off against bigger guys. Take the blinders off fellas. Yes, I am assuming Brewer is not our 3rd scorer. He very well may turn out to be an excellent 3rd option. But I would rather ASSUME that J.J. can do that job better than Brewer, thank you very much. Look at their games and look at what they've done. I'd rather trust J.J. to be the scorer than Brewer. Why would anybody assume/project that Brewer would be a better scorer than J.J.? You sure aren't getting that by watching what they have already done. That's not a downgrade on Brewer. It's just facts. J.J. is the more proven, more skilled, more polished scorer. How can you ignore that? If.......Brewer is our Scottie Pippen, and I hope we get him, and I hope he becomes that, we are still a different team than the Bulls. Scottie was #2. We've already got our top 2 players. On those Bulls championship teams, they had their big 2 and then they had.............shooters, and big defenders/rebounders inside. We are a little different with the inside/outside game of Yao and TMac. You've got to account for that. Our championship teams won because they had Hakeem low, Clyde high, and Smith, Horry, Elie, Bullard, and Cassell all parked around the arc, either canning kick outs or swinging the ball around and dribbling right past the defender flying out for the midrange jump shot or layup. Pippen was lost when he came here? Why? Because his game was basically predicated on playing off Jordan and controlling the ball in transition. We were wanting him to spot up and get the ball off the doubles of Hakeem and Charles and create his offense that way. It didn't work. We may be able to depend on Brewer to come to us, the first year out of college, and bring us defense, good rebounding, intensity, and good ball handling. I would be willing to bet that he will upgrade us in all those areas. But, once again, none of those areas are as important to us as having a player in the floor that will can the wide open shots that Yao and McGrady create. I would not want to go into the season thinking that Brewer can do that. I have seen nothing in his game that indicates that he can do that. And 18/25 in a wide open shooting drill against an empty court don't mean squat. I'd rather think that Brewer would be best served on our team next year as a 4th or 5th scorer and offensive option. By the way, you SHOULD draft for need in a draft where basically the players between 7 and 15 are all rated about the same. Unless one of the big 6 falls to us, every player in that 7 to 15 range has spots in their games. Even the first 6 have a lot of questionmarks. This is a ROLE PLAYER DRAFT my friend. We ain't looking at Bird, Magic, Lebron, and Yao here. There is no definite superstars to pick at 1 and 2 followed by All-Star potential players available at 3-10. We are looking at ROLE PLAYERS. If more than 3 of them develop into All-Stars, this draft will be better than it was projected. It is a WEAK DRAFT. In a normal draft, J.J. would not be considered top 10 material. And neither would Brewer or Carney or Marcus Williams or Shelden for that matter. Which I think really plays into our hands. If there are a couple GMs in the top 7 that make the mistake of reaching for a player, then that could drop one of the top 6 in our lap. At the same time, if the top 6 are gone, we should go with the player or the trade that best suits our needs when we draft and make acquisitions. You can find shooting through FA and trades. Fine, find the deal then. As I've said before, I am fine with drafting Brewer, as long as we get a shooter that will start at the SG for us, or at the very least be the 6th man, and play 30+ minutes a night and be the 3rd scoring option. Find the FA, make the trade. Shooters tend to be drafted in the first round. Look at the top shooters in the NBA record books. 90% of them are top 15 first round picks. I'm sorry but top quality shooters are not available as easily as you say they are. If they were, then we'd already have them. That is why ultimately, I like the idea of trading for an extra pick and getting both J.J. and Brewer out of this draft. If we had a top 8 of Rafer, J.J., Mcgrady, Yao, Swift, Mike James, Brewer, and Head....I think that is as good a top 8 as there is in basketball. That's why I want to sign Mike James, and then draft J.J. and Brewer. And then trade Juwan for whatever we can get. How many charts, stat sheets, and video do we have to look at before we realize that the #1 need on this team is quality, efficient shooting/scoring surrounding 111?
Word is JVG dosen't want JJ man. Your going to be rooting for another team if your that sold on him, because it really dosen't look like the Rockets are ready to gamble on that type of player.
Word is JVG is out of the loop? He don't got no say cause of all of the stupid decisions his made with players his picked in the past.
Fine, maybe I will the deal then. We were a great 3-pt shooting team w/ Mike James, David Wesley, Scott Padgett, Jon Barry, and even Sura was a decent shooter. We signed Padgett and Sura to very cheap deals, we traded Lue for Jon Barry, Reece Gaines for Mike James, and Jim Jackson/Boki for David Wesley. CD has been able to find as adaquate shooters and I'm confident that he will, so I don't think we have to draft in the lottery. jopatmc- Who is arguing that shooting isn't the #1 need on this team? I don't believe anyone is. We need to address the shooting, but do we need to do it in the lottery?
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=149788 "The 212-pound Wade bench-pressed 185 pounds nine times, one fewer than Hinrich, but bettered him in both the lane agility test (10.56 seconds to 10.98) and the three-quarter-court sprint (3.08 to 3.10). Wade also had a 35-inch vertical leap and a standing reach of 8-6." D Wade 185 pounds benched 9 times lane agility test 10.56 3/4 court sprint 3.08 35 inch vertical http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=113911&page=1&pp=20 JJ Redick 185 pounds benched 6 times lane agility test 10.94 3/4 court sprint 3.29 33 inch vertical Ok so we are going to draft Brewer over Redick? Redick is almost as athletic as Wade. He came in at 6-5 in shoes and he is a the deadly shooter the Rockets need. I have a problem seeing all the Redick is slow, unathletic, and one-dimensional logic. How do people explain the scores compared to Wade? Take Redick between his height, his scores, and his proven game. And he FITS the team the best. The Rockets better not listen to the same fans that wanted Swift and Boki and now want Brewer, they better use some sound logic and take Redick.
^Dude... I used to think you were logical when your first posted on here. Now your posts are becoming redundant/annoying.
I am a latecomer to a great thread. This is what Clutchfans is all about: Logical debates; point vs. counterpoints. My 2 cents on the Redick vs. Brewer debate: 1 I won't concede that outside shooting is definitely a greater need than perimeter defense. Even if it is, not by much. Watching Luther and Rafer get roasted and toasted last year upset me more than anything else about the team. I love JVG's scheme of protecting the paint first and foremost, but he should have adjusted some. Now that we can retool our roster, we MUST get a decent defender at the SG spot. Our defense will go up a couple of notches. Most people don't know this, but the most underrated aspect of the Bulls championship teams was the incredible pressure they put on opposing backcourts. Besides MJ's mere presence, this was the primary way they psyched out teams night after night. The other team's perimeter guys knew they would be in for a very long night and dreaded playing the Bulls. If we tighten up our perimeter defense by adding someone athletic at SG, teams will absolutely HATE playing the Rockets. Weak-minded teams will go down much easier and we will win more games going away (which means playing our starters fewer minutes. 2 I've said since last year we must have a 3rd scoring option; as in a specific player instead of by committee based on who's hot that game. With Yao's emergence near season's end and assuming Tracy is healthy, the need for a specific 3rd scorer may not be as big. Yao's newfound aggression and dominance will automatically make everyone better on offense, including Tracy. But I still say we need a reliable 3rd scorer who can kill a defense that focuses too much on our two stars. I don't mean a player who COULD kill a defense. I want a player with the mentality of aggression. This does NOT have to be a jumpshooter. A slasher is just fine with me. How do Brewer and Redick fit in? Redick will be fine on offense. I see him being a hustle player who will not stop moving until he gets open, gets the ball and shoots it. Kinda like Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton except he's shorter. I have no doubt he will be able to get his shot off on our team, especially when we have two stars who will draw most of the attention. On defense is where I have a problem with Redick. He's not strong, tall or quick for a SG. IMO, the guy will be abused night in, night out worse than Luther, which makes me cringe. Redick could end up being a decent rotation player, maybe, but I don't ever see him being starter material. At #8 we should draft someone who has the potential to be a starter. Brewer interests me a lot. I haven't seen him play a full game, just a few highlights. On defense, he could be just what we need. Guys like Stack, Wade won't be able to post him up and make him look like a little boy. Based on his bench press, Brewer also seems to be a pretty strong dude. He is the type of player I want on the defensive end and for running the break. On offense, his funny release on the jumpshot concerns me a lot. Weird jumpshots in college can fall completely apart in the NBA. However, he's big & strong and has the ability to slash and take it to the hole and finish, unlike Redick. IF IF IF Brewer develops a consistent NBA jumpshot, the guy can definitely be an above average player. Please don't criticize me too hard here, but his jumpshot form REALLY bothers me. Bottom line: I prefer Brewer. If Luther develops some consistency, he can almost give us on offense what we think Redick might give us. Plus Luther can run the floor much better. I can't see taking a player like Redick earlier than 15 or so, even in this sorry NBA draft of 2006. We have no player on our team like Brewer, which means he might come in an instantly fill a need. And IF he can come in and hit a 15ft jumper consistently, he's a steal at #8. He clearly has the tools to create his own shot it's just a matter of can he hit them. I also like the way he seems to smell and lust after the rim. It's a stretch to think either guy will step in and be our 3rd scoring option as a rookie. This is where our MLE, trade exceptions and trade possibilities come in. We've got to remake our roster into a younger, more athletic team that can apply defensive pressure, ruin the other team's offensive chemistry, create bad shots & turnovers and run the ball the other way. Brewer fits than mold better than Redick. That said, we do need to improve our outside shooting but drafting Redick at #8 isn't the best way.
Arguing JJ Redick is almost as good an athlete as Dewayne Wade based on some athletic testing numbers is ridiculous. There aren't clear benchmarks with established threshold numbers, as there are in football. You have to look at things like how fast someone is with the dribble. If there were a test to determine how explosive someone's first step is, that would be a lot more helpful than seeing how fast someone runs 3/4 the length of the court. It's more helpful to see tape of someone's rebounding than to know how high he jumps because rebounding is about timing, positioning, aggressiveness, and instincts--not just vertical. The people who are arguing Redick is limited athletically and will not be a good NBA defender are simply saying what is obvious based on watching the guy in college. He regularly got beat off the dribble; I'm not saying he wasn't a great college player, because he clearly was. The Rockets are not going to install a motion offense. In fact, if anything, even when McGrady does come back, they will be more Yao-centered. So the real shooting need is not to find a Reggie Miller-type gunner. Instead, they need to wish for more of a Shawn Marion type: a sick athlete who developed into a good spot-up shooter.
Thanks for the kind words. Like Brewer, I need to learn more about Carney. From what I've gleaned here and there, I rate them pretty even overall. He's got a decent spot up shot and is sickenly athletic. I think it was MemphisX who said he had some motivational problems last year, his SENIOR year, and was benched for a short time. So lately I'm leaning against him some because this is a big red flag for me.
i think i am starting to come around on reddick. it's the fire and passion that i really like. he may actually work really well with the rockets. and shooting IS what the rockets need to spread the floor. having said that... our supporting cast needs some serious upgrading if reddick is going to shine. over the last few weeks of watching the playoffs, i've just been really disgusted with the cast yao and tmac have around them. one a scale of 1-10, i give our supporting cast a "5." and that's generous. the supporting cast is going to have to at least be a "7" if we are going to compete for a title. luther, howard, deke, and bowen can't be part of a chamionship rotation. they just aren't good enough.
You're making a Brewer vs. Redick argument and your not posting Brewer's numbers? If your point is that we should pick Redick because he is almost as athletic as Wade, what does that say about Brewer's numbers? 185 pounds benched 19 times. Lane agility test 11.32 3/4 court sprint 3.14 41 inch vertical
Thank you. I used reverse psychology on this board and you fell for it. You argued that Redick was not comparable to Wade despite some #. Well guess what? You just proved my point and the point of those who understand X's and O's and apparently what the Rockets NEED. See just because some # like Brewer's wingspan or height says he is better than Redick does not mean he is. In fact if anyone here REALLY watched them in college they would laugh that ANYONE would even consider Brewer over Redick. WAKE UP CALL You don't draft players off wingspan or height or a vertical. This board apparently didn't learn it's lesson with the Swift deal (a heralded move here). It's amazing that so many people actually believe you draft based on height and wingspan. No you draft based on who got game. If you can see the failed logic in comparing Redick athletically to Wade from combine results then take your blinders off and see your failed logic in wanting players like Brewer or Carney who are inferior to Redick over Redick because of a couple inches of reach on either arm and a couple inches of height. LITERALLY that IS the argument for Brewer/Carney and against Redick It IS just as ridiculous as the combine results of Redick and Wade athletically. Funny how no one here can see just how ironic they are being in their own posts. But this LOGIC only applies to anyone not named Redick apparently. You do NOT draft off a height listing and a wingspan and a vertical. You draft off of who got game. That other stuff SEPERATES players if EQUAL game. it doesn't prop up inferior players over superior players. Maybe a lot of people here can see that if they just take the blinders off. There is no difference from basing a draft pick of an inferior player like Carney or Brewer over a superior one like Redick simply because of arm length or 5 inches of hop than there is for predicting that Redick will thrown down on 7 footers in traffic because he tested similar to Wade. NO DIFFERENCE These anti-Redicik arguments are flawed and failed logic because they are for Brewer or Carney. If you would say Morrison, Gay someone like THAT then YES you would be right. But your whole logic is flawed when it's an inferior player being picked solely on arm length and hops. Another failed logic here: Brewer hit 18 of 25 three's wide open againt an empty court so apparently his outside shot is "good enough." Boki his 23 of 25, then 24 of 25, then 28 of 30 for a total of 75 out of 80 or 93.3% in his Rockets workout. What was Boki's career 3 point % so far? 35? What was it on the Rockets with all those open looks from Yao? 37% THIS dude shot freaking 75 out of 80! Yeah 18 out of 25 is "good enough." Does anyone here actually understand how shooting drills are evaluated? Everyone seems an expert on hops and "arm length." See if you hit 60 out of 80 I say again SIXTY out of 80 you are considered to be a "decent shooter." Let me REPEAT that 60 out of 80 = decent. 60 out of 80 is 75% 18 out of 25 is 72% Players that aren't shooters usually can't even shoot past 25 because they tire. Also the drill is stopped at 25 if you hit less than 20 shots because you didn't pass to the next drill, which will involve different settings and variables. Believe it or not there is also a drill when guarded. Boki hit 22 out of 25 then 23 out of 25 in the drill in which he was guarded. Brewer did not even make it to the 2nd tier of the unguarded drill. Good shooters stop at 80 shots like Boki, and Boki's test both unguarded and guarded put him in the range of very good. Well he didn't pass to the NEXT level. That goes all the way to 110 shots. Adam Morrison recently scored 102 out of 110 when GUARDED on one of his workouts. The Rockets said Redick hit 106 out of 110 in HIS Rocket workout. Let me REPEAT that Redick hit 106 out of 110 3's WHEN GUARDED as in having to shoot them one on one against a defender (another prospect) Brewer hit 18 out of 25 when open. Carney is a better outside shooter than Brewer by a lot, and very athletic too, yet Carney does worse than Brewer at creating his own shot. He can't score in ANY workouts off the dribble or against a defender. But Carney can jump 5 inches higher and Brewer has long long arms and he even jumps higher than Carney right? And what does T-Mac's 6-9 barefoot 6-10 in shoes height, his 7-4 wingspan his 40 vert from a stand his 42 vert off a step his touching the 12-10 to 13-0 mark variously on his jumps, tell you? It tells you that people are losing objectivity on just how "athletic" these guys are. And what ywould T-Mac be is he had no outside shot? Would he even hold up driving the ball? Does anyone here realize that Brewer and carney are not LeBron or Wade? They are perimeter oriented players JUST LIKE REDICK that either can't shoot (Brewer) or can't drive, dribble, or create their own shot (Carney). And also to be actually FACTUAL they are basically just the same in quickness and lateral movement as Redick is, but yes they have 2 or 3 inches on either arm length. So yes they could have a higher ceiling on defense, but the way that is being looked at here is almost borderline absurd. Brewer will lock down everyone and Redick can't guard hiw own grandma. BTW, the idea that Redick will be bad to pick because he can't guard Kobe........... Yeah that's a perfect reason to draft someone or not draft someone or draft someone else or whatever. Because we all know Kobe regularalky gets shut down by guys like Jish Howard and Bruce Bowen. Just like Bruce and Josh regularly lock down old T-Mac. But wait, Brewer can grab some boards.....YES and that's a good thing, but then again maybe the team should find a PF that can actually grab a board or play one that can and defend (Hayes) and let yao do his thing too, rather than worrying about guards cleaning the boards. Brewer can "run the offense" and play as a PG, hmm...... not to many people have seen that many of those Arkansas games have they? I suppose if a player with inferior handles and point guard skills can run the offense then so be it. Rodney Carney is flashy we will see highlight dunks, well we get 4 or 5 SICK and I mean sicker than sick dunks a year from Swift already, so maybe we should also get a guard than can hit come open shots (unlike Brewer) and ALSO do something other than just stand around at the 3 point line (Carney) Why not just get Posey to do that, we already had that guy and dropped him. How ironic that many people arguing against Redick because he can't creat a shot, or whatever, don't even realize he is the one that CAN, it's the other two particularly carney that can't. Now of course Brewer could bring a lot of good things, but if the team needs a poor man's Bruce Bowen on D, they just re-sign Bogans. If the team needs an athlete to throw some dunks and get in a passing lane FA is ripe and Swift is there to get you whomever your heart's desire many better in BOTH than Brewer. If we need another dunking athlete to stand around and jack up 3's and brick get posey back. What Would Yao Want? Would Yao want an athlete with sick hops and long arms runing around throwing up bricks and just standing there, clogging the lane, trying to drive while a 7-6 310 dude is in the lane? Or would yao want someone to hit a damn open shot? Would he want someone to make teams pay? Would he want someone to DEMAND a defender so he has one less on him? Or would he want another guy to stand wide open and brick shots. Also all the arguments that you need a slasher a guy to drive and that JVG supposedly said that? Well if this is the case JVG must be fired and he has no business being coach. Let's remember we have YAO MING. You see the reason that works on Dallas is because they have DIRK NOWITZKI. Yeah one is a 7-0 PF that plays like a SG and spends much of the game 30 feet from the basket and forces defenders to the perimeter. Could this be WHY Dallas has guys like Howard? Could this be why a guy that cannot create his own shot slashes and why he is ABLE to? Ever see him do a T-Mac and MAKE IT HAPPEN aagainst a set half court with a post presence? See the Rockets don't have Dirk they have 7-6 310 pound Yao in the middle, in the paint. It's HARD to even send a cutter, to even backdoor, it's hard almost too hard even for T-Mac to drive the lane. Yao also creates an open shot for someone basically on demand. But this team needs a "slasher" not a shooter. I am sorry, but I really wonder how many people here really even know the Rockets have Yao.
I don't know... I enjoyed reading it. He makes some points we've read in different posts, but has them all in one, and you can't dismiss his points, assuming Redick is as good a shooter as a lot of people think he is. Also, I've learned that I can CAPITALIZE for emphasis, instead of using italics!
