I think McGrady can definitely be successfully integrated into the current Rockets team. And seeing how much success this team has had without him, I think McGrady will be more motivated to fit into the team concept. I also think Brooks is perfect for a complementary role next to a playmaking SG like McGrady. He's the type of hybrid guard who doesn't need to have the ball constantly in his hands to be effective. (As other posters have said, Brooks is only taking on the main playmaker role right now out of necessity.) Artest is also capable of playing off-the-ball, IMO. He worked on his outside shot all last summer in anticipation of such a role, and he's shown to be a pretty good catch-and-shoot player off screens. During this playoff run, he's also getting better at staying involved without taking a large number of shots. However, I feel that in order for things to come together, McGrady must make his return very early in the season, hopefully by preseason. This will also give Morey time to evaluate McGrady before the trade deadline. If McGrady comes back from his injury in mid-season, which was what I was hearing, the Rockets may be in for another bumpy ride.
You forgot to add we were 2-1 with Rafer playing the entire game and close to rob a 3rd one on a last rebound that Okur took after Dwill choke 2 at the FT line on the road. Ah BTW. Shane was hurt too and required surgery after that series. And we got Rob (As always) By Houston's Friends Tony Borther on a incredible flop of Kirilenko on a 3point tying jumper.
1. I wasn't even addressing your argument, DD (of course it's hard for you to realize that since you're on your usual take-over-the-thread-and-make-it-mine mission again). 2. So you're trying to tell me that the Rockets won 22 games because they "liked" each other, and not because they were passing, cutting, finishing and playing world-class defense? Or are you trying to tell me that they won 22 games because McGrady was pounding the ball into the floor every possession and jacking up high-difficulty shots? 3. Yes, they could not sustain the winning streak forever because the emotional component of it finally ran out of gas, and it didn't translate into the playoffs because their already suspect talent depth suffered an even bigger blow with the injury to Rafer Alston at the end of the season. Of all people, I wouldn't expect you, DD, to try to diminish that streak either. It's important to put stuff in perspective. I see exactly what you're trying to say, and it's a good argument, but in my opinion you're wrong. You base your opinion of McGrady and Artest being incompatible on the floor upon a general stereotypical assumption of how they play, and a fraction of a season they tried to play together with both players hobbling around on one and a half legs. It's a good argument, but it just doesn't have good legs -- literally.
it's not really von. it's also lowry and landry. the 2nd unit this year have SCORERS galore and guys who are very good offensive players. that's what i mean by MORE OPTIONS. who did we have last yr? that's what you don't get DD. you're right in the sense that your team becomes harder to guard when everyone can make plays. but you need to have players who are CAPABLE of making those plays. and i'm sure tracy acknowledges that. he's a passer by heart so if he does get his knee right for next yr (if he does remain a rocket through preseason), you'll see him allowing AB/lowry/von to do their thing. why? b/c those guys CAN make plays. they CAN get to the basket. and they CAN score without his help for the most part. rafer, head... can't.
NO, I base my opinion on watching Ron and Tracy play in the NBA for YEARS both having the ball in their hands. I said it BEFORE the season, and it is still true today....Ron and Tracy don't fit. And I am not diminishing the streak, it was awesome, but it was not during the playoffs, where it really matters. The streak was nice.....and in the end, meaningless at the same time. To me, all these arguments boil down to ONE thing...efficiency...... Tmac and Ron are inefficient players at this point in their careers. I have said what I think...if you don't agree fine, but most of the arguments back have been due to a lack of understanding my points, maybe I just need to be more clear...who knows. DD
People said the same thing (myself included) when Boston acquired the "big three" -- that the Celtics were going to have problems sharing the ball with three superstars. They won a championship in their first year together. You can't make any real judgment about how well two players are going to play together until you've actually seen them get a chance to try. Yes, sometimes it doesn't work out, but more often than not, when it fails to work out, it's a coaching failure. If there's any coach you could entrust with the task of making multiple all stars work well together on the court, it's Adelman. Unfortunately, he never quite got the chance to do it since he didn't even know whether either star would be available to play any given night. You simply can't make that judgment right now -- there is no reliable evidence whatsoever to support it.
Can't we just agree that ONE of those two will need to change for the team (assuming McGrady is still in his crappy condition and Artest is still in trigger happy fadeaway shot mode). McGrady in my opinion is an inconsistent scorer, Artest an inconsistent offensive force. I am basing this on last year when McGrady is known to have off-night scoring but his assists and rebound always go up during those moments. The same case applies for Artest. The guy sometimes goes nuts on offense, but he never fails on defense. Both players WHEN healthy will bring something, not just scoring. They are not inefficient, they are inconsistent. This is why we need to see what we can produce next year, for the last time....... Assuming we can resign Artest and McGrady is healthy that is. If the two of them still fails to co-exist, obviously one needs to go. I don't mind which one leaves as long as we can acquire an experience PG or any other package that includes a sizable center as a reliable sub for Yao.
No no no...not even close.... 1. Ray Allen is an off the ball player 2. Paul Pierce is an attacking Wing 3. Kevin Garnett plays on the low block and high post Those 3 guys have different games, and they fit together wonderfully. Ron and Tracy, while different players, occupy the same space on the floor, the same need for the ball and thus, get in each others way. If you traded Ron or Tracy for someone like Ray Allen, then we would have a mix. We have 2 of the 3 that Boston has, what we lack is a guy who put pressure on defenses off the ball.....Rudy Fernandez is a cheaper version.....Mike Miller, Corey Maggette, Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, guys that play like that. Jeapoarde, Have you ever played the game, and had a guy on your team that was always in your way? That is Ron and Tracy. DD
I tend to side more with DD on this one. TMac, even before this season, has become more and more content to be a spot up jump shooter or a pound, pound the ball and go up jump shooter...rather than mix in heavy doses of drive to the hole and score, dish, or get fouled. His great creativity is negated when he takes the drive out of his arsenal. If he moved off the ball, ala Rip or Reggie Miller, we'd be even deadlier...but that's like applying himself and his skills on defense...it ain't always going to happen. Ron also is maddening when he decides to ballhog at the expense of a flowing team offense. As with Tracy's refusal to drive, Ron's greatest strength is posting up weaker players at his position, but we don't see this nearly enough. Basically, we have two players whose greatest skills and team assets involve getting to the basket, but who for some reason envision themselves as hold the ball jump shooters. In theory, both could work great together. But I believe DD's right. Ron gives in to a flowing offense more frequently than Tracy does and together...my tv wouln't last a week without me busting it with a shoe!
it would be nice to get someone like kirk hinrich, ben gordon, or tyrus thomas. we need athletic wings and a solid PG.
I'm siding with JeopardE on this one. Tmac can fit into ANY type of team when he's healthy. The whole "dominates the ball" thing is BULL, it only applies when the player holding the ball is a selfish ballhog like AI. Are you telling me the Suns sucked because Nash dominates the ball? How about Chris Paul, is he a ballstopper because he dominates the ball? You need a playmaker to dominate the ball on the floor and make something out nothing when the offense breaks down, and when he is healthy Tmac is that guy because he has one of the best court vision and playmaking instincts of players at his position. A starting 4 of Yao Ming, Ab, Ron Artest, Scola has no playmaker- a healthy Tmac fits perfectly there. Your "vision" of 5 players who can all cut, pass and make plays for each other won't happen, because there's no way we'll play 5 point guards at all 5 positions. Besides, with Yao Ming clogging the lane there's no room for 4 other cutters anyway.
The Boston Celtics of Larry Bird's era played that way. Everyone on the team should be able to read, react, cut and pass..... Tmac is not selfish per se, he is just not an efficient player, and one who needs to ball and doesn't cut when he gives it up. I get your point though, I just don't happen to agree with it. And the lilkely hood of Tmac ever being healthy again makes your point moot. DD
It's easy for you to make those distinctions now that you've seen them work so well together as a team. It was much more difficult before they ever played a game together. Like flamingdts said, there is no contention that one or both of these guys will need to adjust their usual playing styles to work well together. What I contend with is this notion that it is impossible for them to coexist successfully on the basketball court because they are somehow "incompatible". All you see is two ball-dominating players (good thing Rick Adelman isn't you). I see: - A playmaking shooting guard who is capable of getting his own shot at anytime, and surrounded with potent offensive weapons, capable of getting a high percentage shot at any time for himself or any of his teammates, but has historically had a very high usage rate that translated to low scoring efficiency (attacking wing if you will); - A dominant defensive forward who on offense is a great spot up shooter, a good passer and able to punish weaker opponents in the post, but struggles to create high percentage shots for himself or others against a decent defense (off the ball player if you will); - A dominant center who is extremely lethal playing with his back to the basket, but is often flustered by fronting defenses and prone to turnovers especially with ineffective floor spacing (low block, high post if you will). They really aren't much different, except that maybe Artest is a much better defender than Allen and has the ability to punish opponents inside as well as outside. A good coach can integrate these talents into a dominant team on both ends of the court, assuming he can actually get them together on the court first.
WOW this is a great response thread. you hit on the spot DD. i was always under the impression that with ron it would be the big 3 like boston. but you are right two guys like ron and mcgrady can't coexist. we need toughness from a guy like ron and someone like rip hamilton would definitely put us up there. i've always thought that when yao had the ball in the post if there was a player like rip who would play off the ball that we would be a serious threat. multiple distraction and spot on shooting. yao could possibly get a triple double. though i stilll think we need a solid PG like a mike bibby. imagine yao scola artest hamilton bibby true championship contenders
If McGrady returns, I think you'll see Artest playing more with the second unit. Starting unit: Brooks McGrady Battier Scola Yao Second unit: Lowry Wafer Artest Landry Scola/Yao is a nice balance of playmakers, shooters, penetrators and low post scorers. It can work. The only question then is McGrady's health and his contract situation.
Except that I said that before they played a game together, it is about styles and fits, and teambuilding..... Ok, fair enough, I don't think that players at 30 that have been individually succesful in their careers playing a certain way are going to change. Can you name ONE that has? A star player that completely changed the way they played the game to compliment playing with another? DD
Funny When I bring up all the issues as to why Steve Francis had a tough time getting to the playoffs [I mean RUDY NEARLY DIED!!! YOUNG YAO . . if you wanna talk about a lack of talent . . look at the teams he had] these same folx are the ones that would tell you WELL . .. HE JUS T didn't get it done now They slobbing TMAC's nob trying to make excuses HEY TMOFs . . I will concede your point that there are legit reasons outside of TMAC's loser mentality but you must concede the SF teams did not go far for the same or similar reasons Steve Cat Walt JJ and Cato . . WHEW!!! Steve had deficiencies in his game TMac has deficiencies in his game and yes. . I AM COMPARING THE TWO After all the Hate spewed on Steve. . .. IT IS TMACs TURN cause at the end of the day . . .they did not get the job done or at least that is what I was told PERIOD So Suck it up Rocket River
While watching the Blazers series, I couldn't stop thinking how close we came to having Brandon Roy and how awesome the Rockets would be now with him in the mix! How his skills would blend in so well with the offense and how much better he'd be with a post presence to play with. Then I'm thinking, shoot, Tracy's got Roy's skills. If only he could be convinced to use ALL of them CONSISTENTLY within the offense. I'd sure like to think maybe the light would go on this late in his career, but I'd lean more with seeing what Morey could get for him instead. I like our chances better in that scenario.
I think that if we think McGrady didn't drive enough while he was relatively healthy, he sure as heck isn't going to start doing it after microfracture surgery. Players who have it later in their careers are never the same in terms of explosiveness/athleticism. So when he returns to playing basketball, I think he can still be a starter in the league but will continue to be a perimeter player. So even though he doesn't lose his basketball IQ and his floor vision and would help any team he is on, he does need to play more off the ball because of this. That was one of the problems this season ... he kept wanting to play the same, get the same shots, have the ball in his hands rather than adjust to what was happening to him for the betterment of the team. Also I have never heard Maggette being talked about as being unselfish. I know the Golden State Warriors season was a trying one but didn't Crawford and him get into it this season for Maggette being selfish and not passing the ball?
