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I generally agree with you about Francis, but I think you're playing a semantics game on this issue (maybe unconsciously, though).

I think what SamFisher was trying to say, is that you care more about how the game is played rather than how successfully it is played.

Now, I know that you believe that playing PG in a classical sense is essential to contributing to the overall team effort. However, isn't overall level of contribution more important?

Ultimately, I'd prefer having a very good "player" at PG who plays the position improperly... than a rather ordinary player at PG who plays it exactly how it should be.

Sure, you're going to lose to team chemistry to a certain extent. Yes, it might not be an optimization of potential.

But what I'm saying (and I think what SamFisher is saying), is that the equation has to be something like this:

Ability * manner of play (what SamFisher was calling style) = substance.

You seem to simply equate manner of play to substance. Or, at the very least, you're weighting manner of play to a ridiculous extent in the equation.

 

Yup. That's right. But let me caveat that with "the way you do it" and "why it works better."

Crossing over a defender for a score means nothing if you try the same thing 20 more times and only convert 5 of them and commit 5 turnovers doing it.

Scoring 40 points for a win means nothing if you lose the next five games trying the same thing.

Dunking on a players head means nothing if you don't get back on on defense.

 

Is Marbury playing the PG in a "classical sense?" What about Payton? What about Isiah? Huh?

They played over-all, better than Stockton could. But Stockton strengthen his passing sense to an extreme level to off-set his inability to score at the same level as Marbury, Payton, or Isiah. See?

So, "classical sense" means efficiency regardless of the other tangibles (scoring or lack thereof) they brought to the table.

Why does "classical sense" have to mean Stockton all the time?

You guys need to get off the "traditional point guard" kick. Because I don't want that. Francis has too many other athletic gifts to be just a "classical point." He could be so much better!!!

Yes. You are right. But overall level of contribution gets brought down if efficiency is sub-par. So why do that? You become a more a liability rather than an asset. It's a fine-line.

That's why Francis's role might change. JVG wont put him in those situations where he has to do things he's not good at.

Notice the last 4 games? Yes, four. Even the the last one we lost. He's not doing too much: 4 assist and 1 turnover. It's not the 4 assist that matters. That helps. It's the fact that he was never put in the postion (responsibility) to get 7 turnovers.

Not getting a ton of turnovers is more important than not getting 10 assist.

Do you see?

 

what haven said. DavidS, you care how the game is played and very little else. it's very clear you would rather see a team go 20-62 playing complete and utter team ball than 62-20 with individual play. i guess it's ok if you think that way, just stop trying to pass it off as "understanding the game." telling Sam he doesn't understand intangibles, lol, how arrogant can you get. essentially you understand the game b/c you want a pure pg, but others don't b/c they like production.

you call people out for rushing to defend francis like he was our mommy (or whatever you said) but you just as often rush to put his game down. we're not arguing against ourselves you know.

hmmm, 40 pts and 5 assists w/ 7 TO's, or 15/11 with 5, both sound like 7 points created per TO. hey, they're equal. but of course, one has a higher associated ast/to ratio, and since that's your favorite stat ever, you choose to go with 15/11.

move into the world of the combo guard, it's no longer ast/to, it's scores created/to. (ast + fg + ft/2)/to. steve still ranks fairly low, but in this category kidd is merely equal to cuttiino mobley (4.67 to 4.7). kidd is turnover prone, live with it. yao is even worse than steve. if you're gonna be obsessed with to's, learn that they are created through all score generating plays. trying to score gets your TO's too (hey you even admitted it with your kidd now scoring 19 ppg mention).

here's the crux of the conflict. you love your basketball purist world, and you'll make up whatever is necessary to defend your points. yeah, if you only convert 5 of 20 and turn it over 5 times, it sucks. but that's not what happens. people like steve are far more sucessful. yeah, and if you try scoring 40 for the next 5 games and win, it is good. no one says jack up shots till the cows come home for no reason. but if you've got easy scoring opportunity after easy scoring opp and you can easily get your 40, you do it and it's successful. if you get 15 assists in a game and then do that the next 5 games and lose when your team would've been better off with you trying to take over a little, then that means nothing also. but the problem is you simply believe 15 assists just means an automatic win while 40 pts means you were selfish and is a loss. your perspective is flawed b/c you hold true to basketball purism to a ridiculous extent (did haven say that, i forget now).

 

You got to be kidding! You will NOT achive a 62-20 record playing individualistically. I can't believe you would even think that.

Getting to 62 wins requires talent AND teamwork. A balance. Not necessarliyt equal, but competent in BOTH.

Again, with the "pure pg." Sigh, you don't get it. Did I say that?

Dude it was just an example. The 40 points dosen't happen. He's not that type of scorer. Sometimes, yes. But not consistently. I'd chose to go with 40/5 and 3TO. But that doesn't happen very often either.

Combo guard huh? Oh, so assist don't matter? Ok, then keep the frinken turnovers down. If the "combo" guard scoring part was 25 - 29 ppg, then you'd have something. But he's not a 25-29ppg combo guard (like Isiah, Payton, Marbury). Add the fact that he averages 3.7 turnovers pg, and only 6.2 assist nullifies the other parts of his game. That being a 21ppg average.

I would love the "combo guard" to get only 4 assist per game, 1.2 turnovers, and 20 ppg. That would be great. That means that he's still contributing with points, some assist, but not hurting the team with high turnovers. Get it?

And the part about, "kidd is turnover prone, live with it..." Ok, you forget this 9asst per game? Did you forget that again?

When I bring up efficiency stats, I talk about points (ppg), assist, turnovers.

Francis's turnovers at 3.7 alone means nothing without showing his 6.2 (low) assist average. You have to talk about both. Now, again, if he scored 25-29 ppg, then you'd have your off-set. But he doesn't get that.

Sigh, "all or nothing" with you too?

In Francis's case, the odds are against him if he tries to score 40ppg everygame.

Sometimes you will win scoring 40 points. But you have to be able to find others way to win during a long season. If you concentrate on just scoring points, then you lose site of the other parts of the game that need attention. Unless, JVG changes Francis's role on this team; more shooting guard like.

And never said 40 points was "selfish." Others say that.

 

No, the key is to have the ablity to do BOTH! Rememer, it is you that say, "combo guard, combo guard, combo guard....!"

That means efficient in both skils, right?

The 40 points doesn't happen very often. And neither does the 15 assist. It was an example, that's all. In the last 4 years, its much worse.

By the way, I think you are confusing soemones elses game with Francis. Maybe someone at the gym? Or a guy named Payton?

 

ITS FUNNY, WHEN THE STEVE BASHERS ARE AWAY, THE YAO BASHERS WILL PLAY.

 

just like you have to find other ways to win that just racking up assists. thus, voila!, combo guard. you do both. like francis does. and hey, we win a lot more when he plays than when he doesn't, so it must work. of course he has areas to improve in (like everyone does), but you simply take his negatives and blow them up and pretend they discount all his positives, which they don't.

 

That's where we differ. You actually THINK that a 62 win/iso team would happen.

Ludicrous!

Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Bulls never played that style ever! They always had talent AND teamwork. And that's how the achieved the 60+ seasons.

All you are thinking about the number "62." That's all you focus on. But how do you get to that? You just don't wish upon a star, and then "wala! 62 wins/w iso."

You actually have to put a team together that has talent, and teamwork. How can you think other wise.

You just say, "Pick, without thinking about the means to get to 62."

It's not that simple.

My point is that if you do play with teamwork, AND have the talent, your chances of reaching 62 wins are that much greater.

 

Scoring does matter.

Put the stats along side each other...

Kidd, 18.9ppg, 8.9apg, 3.7tpg
Francis, 21ppg, 6.2apg, 3.7tpg
Payton, 18.3ppg, 7.4apg, 2.5tpg

Paytons best years had him at 24/8.9/2.7....awesome!

 

No, I don't think that. I did not say "everything." But it does have an effect on the wins and losses that you get throughout the year. Playing that way, will hurt your chances.

I've said before. The 3.7 is meaningless unless you look at the other stats...

The 21ppg, and the 6.2 assist, do not compensate for the 3.7 tgp.

That's why I keep pushing for him moving/or play the role of a shooting guard, rather than a point guard.

If Francis could get 21ppg, and 4.5 assist, and 2.5 tpg that would be better. That would mean that the team would take on more of the passing burden. But this is up to JVG.

 

Hmmm,

Kidd (19ppg), 3.7 tpg
Francis(21ppg) 3.69 tpg

Kidd, 8.9 apg
Francis 6.2 apg

Kidd 296 total turnovers
Francis 299 total turnovers

Reckless? Who's reckless?

Do you even watch Kidd's games? Do you even understand why he's getting to the playoffs and finals?

Do you think it's because of the domnation of Martin, Jefferson or Kiddles?

Heh...

 

What da hell are you blathering about?

in the middle of a Steve discussion, you popup with that?
Yao has not been the subject of any of the last 10 posts(at least)..
geeze, you Yao-only fans think EVERY discussion has to do with Yao.