Chron: Recent results suggest Rockets are getting message

Can't wait for JVG to get this team into shape and more into a professional team.

 

Wait a minute. You think that just because JVG comes in here and removes all of Rudy's ISO plays that that some how clears Francis of his past style of play?

JVG has seen WHY Francis struggles at times. But he's not going to just say, "Rudy was using Francis the wrong way."
I hated Rudy's offensive sets.

And the reason that JVG said that "Francis is not a PG" doesn't matter is because he's going to implement an offense that caters to Francis's style (more SG like). That relates directly in oppostion of what Rudy was having Francis do: PG and decision making from an ISO style of offense. So the flaws are still there, JVG is just hiding them.

And we're not saying that Francis doesn't play defense. He just bad at it. Francis does not like to get his hand in shooters faces. He just watches them shoot.

So if he starts playing better defense this year that doesn't mean that he was doing it all along! If he plays better, and within the system, then the bashing will stop.

All the pressure is on him to prove it on the court. We still have a season to play.


Seems like you guys are singing Kumbaya before the season starts.

 

I just believe that these changes JVG has and will bring is good for a net 10 game difference in our record this year, once the distractions like EG are kept to the minimum.

 

Yes, especially the regular season where team work is *needed* and complacency might set it.

That was the negative part of the ISO. It worked sometimes, gave fans something to cheer for on the short term, but didn't last when you relied on it the whole season.

 

Yeah, he reads this board...

Kumbaya....

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66500&perpage=30&pagenumber=2

 

Its good to see JVG showing the Franchise some love. Living in Miami, I obvioulsy haven't been able to see any of the preseason games but the way this board was going early, it sounded like we were the worst team in the League. Now it sounds like Francis and the Team are doing a lot better and as soon as they start to hit the open J's everyone is saying their getting, we'll be just fine.

 

What would you have him do? Polarize the situation before the season starts?

 

You're right, he's probably lying about everything because of Steve's low basketball IQ.

 

Actually Yao only fans would love it if he's not on the team. Didn't some guy Yun or somebody say trade him to the Lakers?

 

I make no judgements on what he is or is not saying because I don't know. What I am saying is that by alienating Francis he would hurt the team. You would realize his tone with SF was much harder last week and it appears that he's trying to make amends. But if you can't see the flaws to Steve's game then you've never really watched bball.

 

Yes, good psychoanalysis. Never mind the last six months of public commentary that runs counter to the francis bashing dogma.

 

You seem to take any criticism of Steve as bashing or hating when the truth of the matter is, there wouldn't be much criticism if people don't believe he can be better than he already is. If I think this is the best he can do then I'd be very happy with the stats he put up right now. And if you truly believe that this is the best he can do, then he really should defer to Yao as the first option because then he'll be, at best, a second rate talent. So you've unfortunately made a point for those annoying Yao only fans.

I on the other hand, have a much higher expectation from him and that is the ultimate form of respect. So if criticism comes in non offensive and analytical manner backed by evidence, instead of just talking down on whoever for whatever reason, then I welcome it.

Who knows what will happen? Maybe during the course of the season JVG and SF will discover they are at each other's throat too much to get a long and that SF3 might be traded. However, right now, I am more interested to see them get a long and give it a chance as to not be counterproductive.

 

Props to DavidS!!! That's verifiable proof he reads this board! How else would you explain him referencing Kumbaya? No way in hell that's just gonna pop up in his head and just happen to be on this board. It's not that contemporary of a reference.

This board plays a major role in the current Rockets' destiny. How funny.

 

Err... to clarify,It was not me. Actually my suggestion about trading Yao was a sarcasm.

But...

Please do not associate Yao with the Lakers. Even the thought of it give me a horror.
I cannot stomach them.

 

you can't honestly tell me that when people devote entire threads to prove that Francis is a less desirable point guard than JR Bremer or Derek Fisher, that those people really want Francis to do well?

The problem is not that an argument can't be made, the problem is that most francis bashers won't listen to evidence; their arguments always break down to intangibles, because the empirical evidence usually breaks against them.

Unfortunately, most of that is now being dispelled by Van Gundy as well, so they are left with very little.

I see how you speculate that they will be at each others throat. Considering that there was a 24 hour outuburst of gloom and doom last week in which many posters gleefully declared that they could never coexist and that it wasn't going to work out and Francis must be traded two games into preseason and two weeks into the training camp , I think this is an outcome that many people see as desirable. That's why I questionn their ability to listen to reasonn regarding Francis or the Rockets.

 

hey Sam....wadd I tell ya?

 

I did not predict that JVG and SF will be at each other's throats, that's why I was careful in using the word maybe. However, I do see your point.

 

Francis has sooo much potential that he hasn't tapped into.

I can't speak for other bashers. But if Francis does well, the Rockets do well.

And that IS desirable.

If he does bad, the Rockets don't do so well.

That IS NOT desirable. Simple.

Intangibles are something you will never understand because you never seen a PG that could actually lead the point for the Rox. Name one, I dare you.

You seem young. And it seems like you defend Francis like he was your mommy. You get "mad" when some one says something bad about Francis. Like a child.

And, if you want empirical evidence. Take a look at this his turnovers to assist.

6.2 assist to 3.7 turnovers is BAD! Period!
Not all of those turnovers are from assist attempts either. Many are unforced!

If he keeps his turnovers down this year. Great! Just do it. No excuses!

Van Gundy is working around Francis's faults. At the same time trying to make it more team oriented (less load for SF). Something that Rudy didn't do.

 

DavidS, I'm not the guy who stays up all night long posting away in order to prove that the Bulls were awesome and the Rockets were not, and you're the one who has a good old time posting silly flamebait about Francis not being as good a "point guard" (because we all know that Dr. Naismith requires point guards to act in a certain way) as JR Bremer ("DAVIDS YOU ARE THE STUPIDEST TROLL EVER BLAH BLAH BLAH!!" --how many times have I seen that posted in a thread that you're working?) so be careful about who you call young and immature.

Have I seen point guards who did a good job leading the Rockets? Yes, John Lucas for one, Steve Francis for two. Other than that, nobody really stands out. Though I guess I am young.

Yes, I agree that steve's turnovers are too high. However, that goes with the territory when you handle the ball a lot; so are Kidds and a lot of other superstars. Jamal Tinsley, a francis bashers favorite (as he is part of the package to acquire jermaine o'neal or ron artest in their realgm dreams after most trade francis rants) turns over the ball as much per 48. Mark Jackson, who is often pointed to as the shining star of what francis shoujld be like, was the most turnover prone player in the league last year.

Do I wish he had more assists? Sure. Is it his partially his fault? yeah, but is it totally his fault for having teammates who, for the most part, couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a beach ball and hence not trusting them? (and don't give me but 'Yao is an awesome shooter!' 49% for a dude 7-6 isn't that good).

however, regarding statistics vs. intangibles, what I was really referring to was the garden variety francis bashing rant ("Steve sucks, he is a shoot first selfish pg who sucks, marbury and payton are a hundred times better"),

How is Steve a shoot-first point guard, yet marbury and payton are not even though they 1) shoot about 2-3 more shots a game; and 2) shoot the same or worse %?

No, the problem is this. Here we have Francis under a microscope so we magnify his faults (example, in a really twisted way, you and others generally treat his scoring as a "flaw" in his game; last time I checked that was the object of the game) And then people decide that the grass is automatically greener, even though we don't watch Jamal Tinsley throw the ball out of bouonds or Stephon Marbury jack up shot after shot for 81 games a year.

Yeah, he doesn't play point guard the way you think it should be played. I understand, you're all about style over substance. That's the thrust of most of your arguments on this message board such as:
1. the 1994 rockets were bad offensively and scored points because they hit three pointers;
2. The Bulls jazz series were pretty even though they scored in the 80's but the Rockets-Knicks or Spurs-nets were ugly when they scored in the 90's;
3. Horace Grant is much better than Otis Thorpe even though he was less productive because he was a key player on the Bulls;
4. JR Bremer is a better PG than Francis because he knows his role;

Yup, it's not as important what you do as the way you do it. That's why you'd rather Francis have 15 points and 11 assists than 40 points and 5 assists. Becauses he is being a better "point guard" than a player. And god only knows that is what is important.

 

First of all, stay on topic here! We're talking about Francis. Not the Bulls, not the Knicks, nor Grant. If you WANT, you can start a thread about that.

Garden variety francis bashing?

Here's some advice. Ignore posters that say, "Francis sucks." Ignore posters that say, "Pass the ball to Yao, Francis!" Ignore posters that say, "Francis is the worst player every, etc, etc..." Take it with a gain of salt. Learn which ones to ignore.

Yao gets bashed now and again. Griffin gets bashed. Nachbar gets bashed. Cynthia Cooper gets bashed. All favorite players of mine. I don't care if they get bashed. Sometimes they deserve it.

But even though they are favorite players of mine, I don't let it bother me that someone else might bash them. Big deal!

If someone says, "Griffin sucks!" Well, ok. So, what? Improve. But I'm not going to just pretend that Griffin doesn't have flaws. IF, I repeat, IF they are outlandish claims, ignore them.

You clump any and every negative comment about Francis in the same group. All or nothing. See a pattern here? That's the way you think all the time.

I am not of the opinion that "Francis sucks." Learn to tell the difference.

Shoot first? Marbury and Payton? Have you checked their assist to turnover ratio? Please tell me you have...

And, I can't believe you brought up Kidd again! How many times do I have to tell you. His assist to turnover ratio is no way comparable to Francis.

It's not about Francis getting higher assists, only! It's about either getting higher assist (7 or 8), OR, lower turnovers, OR BOTH! And the BOTH are what Marbury and Payton have achieved. Same with Isiah. Same with Kevin Johnson. Same with Steve Nash. Kidd is a special case because he's always had around 9.4 assist per game at a 3.4 turnover ratio. He's only recently upped his points output to nearly 19ppg. So he can afford to have a 3.7 turnover per game. He's off-sets the turnovers with this other types of production.

All those point guards can score AND PASS at an efficient level! Do you understand that!???

Francis has not achieved that level, yet. Will he? Who knows? If he doesn't achieve that. Then his role will change big time! More SG like without the passing efficiency. If JVG does that, then great.

Style over substance???!?!?...oh, kaaayyy....you gotta be friken kidding me!!!! Your definition of "style and substance" are completely different than mine. Let me explain something to you...

I favor substance first (fundamental pass, or shot), then style secondly (flash). But if you CAN'T do the substance, then leave the flash at home!

Example: Magic Johnson was ABLE to make the fundamental pass, shot, or lay-up perfectly. No spice. No special sauce. No complexity. He learned that FIRST!!!! Now, listen up....

THEN, AFTER he got his fundamentals DOWN (learned)! He added the "style." He could AFFORD to do the "style" because he already learned the "substance."

Get it?

Substance = fundament skills; simple jump-shot, efficient pass, effective lay-up, getting your teammates involved for a simple layup...etc...

Style = Flash, personality, no look pass, spectacular dunk, spell binding cross-over...

The last four years, Francis would go after the "home run (sound familiar?)" first!!!! Forgetting about the simple play "substance." That's what Francis is lacking. Not the "style" part. He has plenty of that. He doesn't have the "substance" as a point guard. He DOES have the "substance" as a shooting guard. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Your statement about "style" is WRONG! Style is the last thing I want from a player, if he can't do the "substance" (the simple pick and roll, the fundamental pass, setting a good pick..etc...) first!!!!!

Do you understand yet?

Now I'm not talking about ALL of Francis's game. He's a very good free-throw shooter. He's a very good jump shooter (stop and pop). He's excellent at the cross-over. He great at the reverse lay-up. But those are individualistic parts of his OFFENSE. HIS offense. A perfect role for a shooting guard. And, he's a pretty good passer for a SHOOTING GUARD!

So while you say that "my definition of a point guard" doesn't matter since Francis will play his game without the constraints of a title (PG). That's completely missing the point (pun not intended). His role on this team as a PG WILL change.

If JVG decides to lessen the PG duties from Francis, then great. What we'll see is more of a team oriented passing system and Francis passing less. I would love that. This is what seems like is happen now with the team.

BS!!!! Look deeper man!!!!

What good is 40 points, 5 assist AND 7 turnovers (you forgot the TO part again) from ONE player? That kills the team! Sure, you might get a win here or there. But over the long haul, it works against you! Rudy was part of this problem too!

Efficiency works better in the long run. And it also works to your advantage in the playoffs when attention to detail is utmost importance.

Francis getting 15 points and 11 assists AND 5 turnovers is decent because the amount of successful assists helped the TEAM and off-set the turnovers and got other people involved. He created a chemistry. He relied on the easy play, not the iso play.

See?

Now, I'm not saying that 15 points is better than 40 points. But if Francis could get 40 points 5 assist, and keep his turnovers low. Then great! He'd achieve what Payton, Marbury, Kevin Johnson and Isiah have done time and time again.

Prolific scoring AND efficient passing! BOTH!!!!!! If he can't do that, then his role will change, and become more shooting guard like. If that's what will happen, then good. That's the best we can hope for.