Chron: Not trading Lidge, Vote o Confidence for Purp and Gar

Thanks for providing this disclaimer. I was about to flame your post ruthlessly until I got to this point--as speculation it's feasible; until then I thought you were presenting these thoughts as pure dogmatic fact, and of course none of us *really* know what goes on behind closed doors.

 

Riley: virtually nobody in the Astros org. was sorry to see Hun go. He had been trying to get himself fired for about a year & there were very, very few people who had a positive working relationship with him. He was, in short, a total jackass. He was a very, very good GM in Houston, but he's not blameless in his leaving. He wanted it, everybody else wanted it, it was inevitable.

Also, the current lack of talent in the Astros Minor Leagues lays squarely at the foot of Gerry (with the help of some scouting people since fired), who oversaw the horrid drafts from '99-'03.

 

Two questions:

--Is there a story anywhere about Gerry's personality clashes? I heard rumblings of it, too, but not enough to feel comfortable stating it publicly.
--What was Purpura overseeing from '99-'03? I know I've asked for clarification on this point before.

 

i hope this is merely empty, meaningless talk show fodder. yes, they probably are better than they've shown - but nothing above a .500 team; no way.

amazingly, other than carlos lee, they will be going into this offseason with THE EXACT SAME QUESTION MARKS AND NEEDS AS LAST YEAR: back of the bullpen stability, who's playing 3b, RF, 2b (replacing CF, though, ironically, the questions are about the same guy); where will they find #2 and 3 starters.

and on top of that, two of their best offensive players this year (lamb and loretta) will be FAs.

meanwhile, the minor league cupboard is bare and the free agent list for next year doesn't really inspire. i mean, how in the world do they expect to fix something that's now been broken for two full seasons? especially if they're under the belief this team is better than they've played....

could be a long two weeks, followed by a long few years....

 

What was wrong with the 2002 draft? We wonder why there's no offensive players to bring up. 13 out of our top 18 picks we're pitchers, including #1-#6. Yet, for some reasons none of their names have ever been brought up here. For those wondering, Pence and Patton were taken in 04 and Hirsh was the only guy from 03 you'd probably recognize. Thought i'd mention those guys since they are the only names you ever hear on the board. Don't bother trying to identify more than 5 names from 2000-2003 unless you really scout the minors.

Here's a link to recent drafts.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=hou&year=07


Derick W Grigsby R/R 6'0" 200 06/30/1982 1 RHP
Mitchell B Talbot R/R 6'1" 170 10/17/1983 2 RHP
Rory A Shortell R/R 6'3" 205 06/03/1981 3 RHP
Mark S Mclemore L/L 6'2" 215 10/09/1980 4 LHP
Patrick T Misch R/L 6'2" 170 08/18/1981 5 LHP
John P Duran R/R 5'10" 190 09/13/1979 6 RHP
Scott P Robinson L/L 6'1" 185 10/14/1983 7 1B
William J Westhoff R/R 6'0" 195 01/18/1980 8 RHP
Andrew R Topham R/R 6'2" 185 08/31/1980 9 SS
Bradley M Chedister R/R 6'4" 220 04/28/1981 10 RHP
Jason R Reuss R/R 6'5" 205 11/02/1979 11 RF
Chance M Douglass R/R 6'1" 200 02/24/1984 12 RHP
Nicasio Covarrubias R/R 6'2" 195 06/12/1980 13 RF
William J Boening R/R 6'4" 190 08/22/1984 14 RHP
Jeffrey E Mackor R/R 6'1" 210 06/17/1980 15 C
Jared L Gothreaux R/R 6'0" 205 01/27/1980 16 RHP
Daniel S Freeman R/R 6'1" 210 08/03/1982 17 RHP
Brent S Long R/R 6'3" 195 06/23/1980 18 RHP

 

How does it make baseball sense? I don't understand.

 

i think lidge is a luxury right now for this team as it's currently constructed. and this winter, they'll need to find a 3b, RF, #2 starter, #3 starter and possibly a 2b depending on what burke does down the stretch. meanwhile, two of their best offensive players (lamb and loretta) are free agents, as is, if not mistaken, their everyday catcher, who's nearly 40.

if lidge could bring in 2-3 guys to fill two of those needs, i think it makes good baseball sense, especially if they hold onto to qualls and wheeler. it makes BAD baseball sense to not at leats investigate it...

 

Absolutely. Like I said, if you can get a great deal, you have to take it. And that's what Purpura has said. But unless that happens (and it's unlikely), it doesn't make baseball sense to move him for the sake of moving him. And he's a luxury if there's talent waiting in the wings to replace him. There isn't. Even if it takes a couple of years to have this team ready to contend again from an offensive and starting pitching standpoint, it'd still be irrelevant with the bullpen as it's currently constructed outside of Lidge.

The level of bullpen talent in this organization is incredibly low... so you have to be very careful with dealing Lidge.

 

I predict that Lidge will not thrive in the closer role. Whatever magic he had is gone. His trade value is based on his closer abilities, for which we hope some playoff team will overpay. Baseball sense: trade your closer who can not close for prospects that may become everyday players.

 

Right again. If you believe the Astros are close to contending you keep Lidge, because contenders need closers. If you don't you trade him, because contenders need closers and will help you re-build the rest of the team.

We have too many holes to fill not to trade Lidge or Oswalt (yes, Oswalt, forgive me Lord and board). If the offers aren't any good fine, but not considering it is absolute idiocy. Nobody on any team should be untouchable. If you can make your non-contending team a contender sooner you do the trade. If you can't you don't and wait for the right trade to come your way.

I hate when homer fans get mad at the suggestion that we should trade one of our superstars. Its about winning. Players have no loyalty (anybody heard the names Clemens, Petite, Beltran) why should fans or owners? Yao, T-Mac, Oswalt, Berkman they are all expendable for the right price. Any one of them would be on the next jet out for A-rod money. To owners and fans it should be about winning. To players it will always be about the money.

 

agreed, though i think lidge would bring back a bounty, given his credentials, talent and contract. short of a dontrelle willis/miguel cabrera type being made available, i can't imagine there being a more wanted asset on the market than brad lidge.

dan wheeler posted a 2.16 ERA in his first 4 months as a closer including nailing down big games down the stretch last year - he'd be an OK stopgap until you could find a more permanent replacement - again, assuming lidge fetches you 2-3 need items.

 

All his numbers indicate that his "magic" is back, and in some cases, better than ever. The only reason anyone would have a question is if you buy into that stupid psychological BS, which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. He's only had two save opportunities since he was put back as closer, and in one of them, the winning run was on third with none out against the heart of the order. It didn't come close to advancing. Psychologically damaged my ass.

Between now and this time a year from now, Lidge will have 35+ saves with an ERA under 2.50 (barring injury, of course). If anyone disagrees, I'd love to make a tip jar wager, sig bet or whatever they prefer.

 

I agree. I think Lidge is back, but I'd trade him anyway if he can fill 2 or more roles on this team. We need a 3b, 2b, SS, c, outfielder and 2-3 starting pitchers. He is one of our only tradeable assets (unless you include Oswalt). We will be in mediocre hell for years if we don't re-build this team. Loretta, Lamb, and Jennings should be offered, but I doubt they'll bring much.

 

That one save for the year jumps out at me. What is Lidge's ERA in the 9th inning btw?

$25 tip jar bet. You are on.

 

How many innings has he pitched in the ninth? You can make anyone look good or bad when you limit the sample to four innings. Hell, you could make Woody Williams look like a stud that way.

But yeah, tip jar bet, I'm good for it.

 

I still believe we can make a run at it (barely), but the realist in me says otherwise...All these votes of confidence are just signs that they're gone...

 

Good post!

 

imo, you only deal oswalt if you're ready to blow the whole thing to smitereens, and i don't think the astros are ready to do this, nor should they be.

you can win with a nucelus of oswalt, lidge, berkman, lee, & pence. the problem (and the reason lidge is such a viable trading chip) is that you have few ways internally, and fewer options externally (barring a significant trade) to address what i believe are the team's most glaring needs: a lead-off hitter, a middle of the order run producer, two top of the roation starters and better overall team defense.

hopfeully, burke can be your lead-off hitter next year and, along with a healthy everett, team to help the overall defense. and one of the farm pitchers needs to establish himself as a top-line starter. but that still leaves you needing help - another top starter, a defensive outfielder who can play everyday, and a stick at third base (or vice versa). and i wouldn't object to an upgrade at catcher, but not a glaring need - unless ausmus leaves. and you'll need to resign lamb and loretta.

and to that end, lidge could definitely help. granted, it would open a hole at closer, but wheeler has proven to be a decent, if not very good replacement.

 

you can sign a CF/RF free agent. more options there than catcher and 3rd.
so i think astros should target a catcher first then 3rd along with a young pitcher or 2.

if lidge is dealt what do yall think the possibility of him signing with the astros is when he is a FA? would drayton give him the money?