Chron: Houston's black drivers searched far more often than whites

And I suppose it doesn't matter to you that the reason America did things like that was for national security. You mention America's "interests" but what do you think that means? I don't like how you imply that it was for greed. We were in fear of a virulent anti-American government, which indeed would have happened..

I am not saying all of our foreign policy actions were good or right, but to dismiss them as EVIL is going way too far. We did have our reasons that made sense at the time, although the results are mixed.

By the way, where on earth did you read that people hate America for such CIA operations? Talk about a stretch. They have many and varied reasons for their hatred of the US, good discussion for another thread.

BTW, glad to see you discovered Google.

 

So...which way do you want it to be? As specified in the title, or not? I agree that you may not see the connection, that was never requisite to my pint. I am asking you whether or not you advocate and practice adherence to people in this forum excericsing political and intellectual freedom of assosciation as they see fit or not. Geese and ganders are not topically relevant either, but I might bring them up soon...

 

The real problem is that too many motorists are being searched all together. They can search whoever they want, whenever they want.

Back when I was younger and had less money, about 13 years ago, I drove around an old '72 Delta 88. I was stopped a couple of times a month and I was searched occasionally. The police claimed their computers showed my registration was expired even though my tags were in order. I was never ticketed (I started carrying my registration receipt with me). Now that I drive a newer car. I am never stopped. (But then again I am whiter now than I was then.)

 

do what you will...i wasn't putting any requisites on it at all..i don't have the authority to. i just thought the post was ill-timed, unconnected, and honestly, reminded me of a horse being belted while laying on its side.

the article was about race as a factor among police officer in searches. racism exists...worldwide...we all know that. there should be no debate. the only debate is one you created where you extrapolated out from the activity of HPD to the CIA setting up puppet governments. objection, irrelevant!

 

Exactly. Not being proactive in rooting out Marxist regimes friendly to the USSR would have left us exposed with yet more ways for the Sovs to mess with us in our backyard and/or with our vital interests, like the Iranian oil. Most if not all of these countries lacked the neccessary tools to host a stable Republic, namely a strong rule of law and an educated populace. So a brutal dictator, while repugnant and countercurrent to our ideas, was an non-ideal solution for a non-ideal world. Hey, wait, didn't you liberals argue that about democracy in Iraq? That's the funny thing, you guys argue something like it is gospel, but when it is applied to the other side (with the good old days of the CIA-Christians in Action- dirty tricks which I miss so much), you so amazed that we'd do such a thing, a thing you have no problem with doing in Iraq.

 

Just use your judgment when trying to stay OT. Comments that make the other side object vehemently may not be advisable. I could make anti-Clinton or anti-Democrat jokes all day but I don't because I know it would derail the thread.

 

I wish I could be surprised by the statistics, but I'm not. Having said that, Houston's police department is not even close to being what it was for years under Chief Herman Short. That guy was a member of the KKK and wouldn't hire anyone who didn't toe that line. As a result, the department was always understaffed. I wish I was making this up, but I'm not. Officers used to carry "throw-downs" in their trunks so that in case they blew someone away, they could plant a pistol on them and call it self-defense. When this happened to a white teenager, some of the truth came out and the wheels slowly started to come off... but it took a long time to bring real change.

In other words, it ain't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be. I remember getting pulled over in the '60's several times because I had long hair and a KFMK bumper sticker. What happened to Blacks and Hispanics was a hundred times worse.

 

Also, I didn't point out that Iran is one of the most PRO-American Middle East countries. So Macbeth's theory that countries hate us because of our previous policies is faulty.

 

Nations usually act in there oen self-interest. That is an accepted truism. We do not, however, forgive others supporting/facilitating the muders of millions for that reason...only with ourselves do we split that particular hair. Only there is Evil too far.

And if you honestly don't think that the hatred we engender in other nations is linked to those kinds of actions, I don't know what to say...I could cite films, books, articles, speeches etc. about same...I could point out the direct connection between where we are 'hated', where we pursued these kinds of actions, and the reverse.... but I doubt it would have any effect. I seriously didnlt know that it wasn't common knowledge that it was an effect.

 

so....reminds me of that scene in MIB II where the fake driver was white because the first black one kept on getting pulled over.

anyways, im curious, what is the demographic breakdown of Houston? also, are there any law enforcement people here who can give some insight as to why this is the case, not just in Houston, but all over the country? Otherwise, i may just be inclined to believe that racism is the only reason for this.

 

Then you agree that many countries are at fault for Stalin's murders in the USSR.

On your 2nd point, you mentioned Iran earlier. Iran does not hate us.

 

Please do not let this deteriorate into a war of racial insults. Read my post with an open mind. I am willing to say what the majority of you won't due to fear.

From a social psychological perspective, I've always been amazed at the automatic blame which is placed on the people who do the most for society. Why are law enforcement officials -- the very people that protect us -- being singled out for being unfair? I find it quite fascinating that society places the victim label on the groups of people who commit crimes. Why do the groups of people who commit crimes not receive any blame in all of this? They are the ones wasting the community’s tax dollars on oversight, police force, welfare, free lunches, etc. What exactly are they adding to the quality of life in our community? Some people do see this. This is where stereotypes and prejudices arise. People try to bury this and squash the argument under the “That’s racist! How dare you!” defense, but let’s face facts, people.

Studies have shown repeatedly that certain demographic groups are far more likely to commit crimes that others. This is not opinion, it is fact. Look at the demographic composition of our prison system. The stats do not lie. Law enforcement officials are keenly aware of which areas of town cause problems. I have friends in the force and they can tell you in two seconds the areas that they respond to the most for crime. It's no mystery that a policeman is more likely to arrest a suspect for murder/rape/aggravated assault in the fifth ward than in River Oaks or West U. Clearly this has an impact on racial stats. Believe me, these officers don’t want to have to arrest a single person. The violators of the law dictate who is arrested, not the law enforcement officials.

The world is what it is today because of specialization of labor. Specialization increases knowledge and understanding. It builds expertise. Who are the naysayers, such as this journalist, to come in and tell a law enforcement official how to do his or her job? Who best to know who to search and who not to search than the people who keep our streets safe on a daily basis? The people who do it every day. Seems to me as though they would know how to best enforce the law -- not a journalist.

The racism argument is even more ridiculous. It is as if law enforcement was 100% white. Newsflash to you, MadMax -- it isn't. You have blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians, the whole spectrum serving the community. Perhaps blacks are more likely to search blacks, and this skews the balance? Who really knows. I don't and therefore I won't speculate like some of you are so willing to do.

 

Allow me to clarify;

My original point had nothing to do with dictators, etc. It was simply that this is yet another example of the kind of thing which should preclude us from assuming we have a moral superiority over the planet, and acting upon same. Yes, racism exists, however, like crime, it is particularly high in America. To simply say it exists as an idependant entity is to disavow any connection with our system, history, or priorities.

There is a DIRECT LINK between our priorization of capital acquisition and racism, particularly in the South. That was my second point, still connected, when responding to the idea that "just because we're not perfeft doen't mean we're not better than everyone else." counter I had received.

That it so evolved is part and parcel to political discussions, few of which I have seen you take issue with, many of which I have seen yout ake part in. It would seem that your "relevance' objection came about once it was clear that I was making a point with which you disagreed...as evident in your first response, which had nothing to do with relevance, and in the fact that in a 2 sided discussion, you censured exactly one party for not being relevant, coincidentally the party with whch you disagreed on the issue, relevant or not.

 

1) Who and how? Not disagreeing, just want specifics.

2) Are you serious?

3) Can you tell that last bit to Bush, Rummy, et al? Please.

 

I was pulled over for a ticket in Houston once, the cop put me down as an Anglo on the ticket. Let me just say that I'm not black, or hispanic, but I'm sure as hell not white and there is no way you can mistake me as white. Even my name suggests that I'm not white. I don't think this was an error by the cop, I think he was putting me down as white so as to skew the race statistics that go to the department. Just something to think about. I do believe the HPD is discriminatory in race through many ways. What the cop was trying to do was to cover this fact up a little more.

 

Britain was allied with the USSR.

Do you know what is going on in Iran at all? Bush and Rummy are quite aware of the popular discontent of the Iranian people and their pro-American sentiments.

 

havent we had this arugment before?

Prision demographics only show which group gets convicted of crimes more, not who is commiting more crime.

I would tend to believe that socio-economic standings will determine who is more likely to commit "street crimes", not a person's race. The fact that blacks generally have a much lower socio-economic standing than whites doesn't make it a direct coorelation that blacks commit more crime.

here is a novel idea, why don't police only search cars when there is probable cause to do so? (and race is not a probable cause!)

 

As I said, being allies is not a direct parallel. If there was a democratically supported movement within the USSR, and they had succeeded in ousting Stalin and putting a populist leader in his stead, and Britain funded, trained, and lead covert ops and a military coup to put Stalin back in place to ensure access to Soviet oil, etc., that would be a parallel. ANd were that the case, you betcha I would say that Britian was responsible for the slaughter of millions that followed.

Yes, I know a little of what's going on in Iran. They may be less anti-American right now than some other nations in the region, or than they have been in the past. To say that they don;t, in general, harbor animous to the States would be going way too far.

Remember, too, that prior to the war Iraq was among the least anti-American nations in the ME, and that doesn;t mean they don;t hate us. And where did a lot of the anti-American elements which have entered Iraq recently come from, according to the WH? You guessed it, Iran.

 

I just wanted to clear something up; "freedom and equality" is irrelavent to many people when you need money. Five million foreigners especially from South Asia live in Saudi Arabia (Muslims and Hindus), and plenty more would live there if Saudi Arabia allowed more people to "immigrate" there even though they will can never be citizens or ever have the same basic rights as a citizen. It's very hard to even visit the country if you aren't doing business there or aren't going there for a pilgrimage.

 

if you were black, i'd say we got pulled over on the same night.

i got pulled over along with a black guy driving the car next to me on Westheimer back in 1990. the cop handed me my ticket, and i went on my way. next to race it said i was black. ummmm...i'm freaking irish. brown hair...white skin...blue eyes. i'm guessing the black guy got a ticket that said he was white.