[Chron] Guard glut? What guard glut? More the merrier, according to Mike James.

Not necc. JL3 just isn't a factor--not of the legit NBA guards should care whether he is on the roster or not. That said, maybe James is just confident he is the best PG on the team and that he will start and doesn't care whether Rafer or whomever else backs him up.

 

Good post. With out all the numbers and stats I tried to throw out... you made the same point in a much clearer fashion.

 

Francis career 3pt % - .343
Alston career 3pt % - .358

Francis season high - .396
Alston season high - .392

I wouldnt say Alston is just some superior marksman over Francis from 3. They've both played 8 seasons and 3 of those seasons Francis has shot better than Rafer from 3.

Lets not overlook those 2 pointers, where sad to say Rafer becomes a liability past all the things he does do well. For all the intangible qualities of a player, making shots is still key, especially one in a SCORING role. Rafer showed, on a purely DEFENSIVE team that never even stressed offense, On a team where its okay for McGrady to launch from 27 feet out when he wanted and Luther Head and Chuck Hayes to be one-dimensional and no-dimensional, his lack of scoring efficiency was STILL seen as bad.

Rafer probably actually did the right thing going with the 3 pt launches based off his percentages. If he shoots even from both 2 pt and 3 pt, might as well tilt some shot attempts over to the 3 side. There are times when you just need a simple shot, and for that Rafer is NOT the one you can trust, in a ballhandling CREATOR'S role to create a shot when necessary. Especially as indicated when his free throw percentage isnt good either.

If he lessened his shot attempts (which he shows no sign of doing), he'd be adequate. But just as McGrady and Yao make it easier for other players, vice-versa players need to make it easier for them, which besides his adept ballhandling he DOES NOT do.

 

Did you call these two are the same points?

and where is the stuff that rafer brought to our table?

 

Oh man you hate Skip so badly

 

The graph on the other page (comparing the 3 players) only takes account of Steve Francis's assist numbers last year (which of course won't be good because he was playing pff guard with Marbury at his point guard spot). In fact, his low assist numbers were only in New York. But, Francis has had way better assist numbers than last year...at his height he averaged 7 assists and the rest of the time between 6.2 to 6.7 per year to go along with his 20 points and 5 plus rebounds he got. So, Francis is capable of dishing the ball.....he also offers other things like the abililty to create his own shot, penetrate, score, or get a foul on a defender and rebounding.

 

i'm hoping we start the season with Rafter, Steve & Mike.

recurring first round disappointment aside, we weren't chopped liver with Rafter at point last season ... let the recent signings make a case for the starting job & minutes.

 

Uh, he IS an efficient ball-handler and IS efficient at not turning the ball over. What is it about efficient you don't understand?

Really? Wow, that must mean you have been or currently are playing in the NBA. PGs who don't turn the ball over for 48 minutes are very hard to come by. Hell, even the likes of Steve Nash and Jason Kidd can't even do that!! Of course, they make the mistake of actually dribbling the ball consistantly and trying to get teammates involved while 5 guys try to stop them.

3rd scorer? If you think Rafer was our, or should have been, our 3rd scorer then maybe I can understand your extreme distain for him. Yes, if Rafer is the 3rd scorer on the team, we are in trouble because that is not his game nor will it ever be. Obviously he is not a great scorer/shooter, but if everyone else is doing their part offensively, then we can easily live with his numbers. But, if they can't even shoot as well as an average highschool team (as they did against the Jazz), then those numbers hurt.

Wow, clever. Your wit both confuses and amazes me.


This is the last thing I'll say about the matter because I'm sick of the constant debate. Hell, I wish he would just get traded just to stop this nonsense alone.

I'm not crying over possibly losing Rafer. I like him but there could be better options or fit.

I just think it's sad he became the easy target for everyone. For all those that can't look past his street ball days, for everyone that still can't forgive the Rockets for trading James for him, and for those that just want to point the finger at someone - it's all Rafer's fault and people just join in on the bandwagon.

I don't even think the Rockets feel the same way despite what some posters claim. The trade for James was to give Rafer help, drafted Brooks because he was the best player available at that draft spot, and added Francis because it was a chance to add talent at a bargain price. Because things worked themselves out that way, Rafer is NOW a lot more expendable. They are not going to just turn around and trade a newly acquired player and they now have others who make less. It's a salary and numbers issue, NOT a talent issue.

Look, he is a decent starting NBA PG. Nothing more, nothing less. He has his advantages (ball-handling, low TO's, steals) and he certainly has his disadvantages (streaky shooter, doesn't finish going towards the rim). But, people act as if he is a plague of a PG who automatically puts the team behind the 8-ball before every game by just suiting up and it is just not the case.

Oh, by he way - when did 36% from 3 become a travesty? I can name at least 10 starting PGs in the league that shoot worse than that. Yes, Rafer is streaky, but it's not like he is a black hole (ala: Eric Snow, Brevin Knight, etc).

It just amazes me how low people think of the guy. The guy has played hard for this team and city and has legitametly helped win many a game. You don't when 50+ games in this league (especially with injury issues) with a starting PG that is trash. I mean, this is a guards, and more specifically a PG's, league now.

I'm by no means saying he is the answer or even a good solution and it is probably the time to have him move on. But, to talk about him as if he is dog trash is just insane. Just my final 2 cents.

 

At least take account of minutes played? if u look at per, they r very close.
You do know Steve was in direct competion with Marbury and had an injury right? You think Skip would get 37 mins if he were Steve?
Raw stats taken out of context is not convincing IMO.

 

Well, I woudl retort by saying "what about the term 'efficient' do you understand", but we have our answer.

Nothing.

What you don't get for the second time, is that efficiency in basketball is not just "not turning the ball over", or not hurting your team by creating lots of turnovers, but rather, production adjusted fo the amount of time on the court. The fact that Rafer doesn't make ballhandling mistakes is good - however, he was profoundly unproductive in other aspects. When Rafer is out there jacking up shots, or not shooting at all, and not doing anything else - then he is not an efficient player. Conversely, when Mike James was handling the ball and scoring by shooting at a high clip and handing out assists, with relatively low turnovers, with Toronto in 2006, he was fabulously efficient. His PER was tremendous, especiilally when compared to his salary.

I, like anybody, woudl gladly accept Steve Nash's turnovers, when you factor in his incredible productivity in other areas, such as scoring and shooting - two things that Rafer is incredibly bad at. In fact he is so bad at them that most teams make him do them as much as possible to increase their chances of winning.

Of course I don't play in the NBA, you ninny. My point is htat if I did play in the NBA, it really wouldn't be that hard to have no turnovers. Simply don't handle the ball or take many chances. In fact, if my coach permitted me, I would gladly play all 48 minutes a game, provided other players would never pass me the ball, and average 0.0 turnovers per year.

By your flawed logic, this would make me into an efficient player. In reality, I would not be.

They also manage to be productive over the course of 48 minutes in other ways than just not turning the ball over. This is not a difficult point to understand.

Umm, look at the numbers, HE WAS THE THIRD SCORER. He took the second most shots overall, the third most per game, and scored the thrid most points per game. I don't know what htat makes him aside from the number three option on offense.

Was he the #3 option by design? No, unless you mean the design of the other team. However he is such a uniquely bad fit for the team that other teams were able to make him into the third option by daring him to shoot and putting hte ball into his hands, all season long. And the point is, it worked. It was very effective. He was an incredibly inefficient scorer, and player, who did not help the Rockets much at all.

It's not really wit that escapes you, it's rather the definition of efficiency in basketball, which you seem to think means "not a lot of turnovers". You're just dead wrong.

Right, sure, yeah - after two mediocre seasons by Rafe, the team makes acquiring a PG the number one priority in the offseason for two straight offeseasons, and now is actively trying to trade him - but I'm sure they're confident he can lead them to the promised land. All of the constant attempts to replace the man who plays 40 stunningly unproductive minutes per game at PG were simply a happy coincidence in Rocketland.

You have got to be joking. Not deserving of a response.

NO, he's a particularly lousy one, which is why other teams put the ball in his hands as much as humanly possible last year.

When you shoot 529 times, in a slower-paced offense. As a third option, Rafer managed to have a historic season (24th most all-time) in league history in terms of three point shooting attempts, And don't even get me started on the other 500 two point shots, he took last year, and how piss poor he was at that. As far as players with 1000 shots in a season, he managed to finish lower % than anybody in Rockets history.

Good.

 

I have to agree with mogrod's statements here.

The lasting impression Rafer has made on many of you is of a PG who cannot shoot, cannot score in traffic, jacks up too many 3s, etc. I do not deny that I can those are his weaknesses as it is equally obvious to me too.

However, my MOST lasting impression of Rafer... was from a game against the Phoneix Suns on 17th January 2007. Yao Ming was still recuperating from his knee fracture. Tracy McGrady was out with a bruised back. The Suns were expected to WHOOP the Rockets a$$ from here to the moon. And the Rockets did eventually lose to the Suns. But the loss was not the a$$ whooping everyone expected... but was only a 9 point loss and the boys even gave the Suns, with all their major players intact and playing huge minutes, a mighty big scare.

Guess who led the team then?

You got it right. Rafer Alston.

He put the team on his back. Scored 29 points, handed out 8 assists, got 3 rebounds and 2 skills, and basically drove the team forward at every point. Rafer played his heart out on that match... gave it everything he got. He won the hearts of some fans with that display of his in that match. He won my respect and admiration.

I also remember other games when he came up big. Dallas, Kings, Spurs....

Yet, alot of people just seem to grab his weak points and hold it tightly to their chest. They ignore his good points... treat it like they don't exist. It is like girls looking at the non hip kid in high school and thinking of all the reasons he sucks and ignoring his good points. It is like your friends abandoning you when you are in crisis and of no use to them despite all the things you have helped them with in the past. It is like you giving money to a friend in his time of need, and yet, when you criticise him, that is all he remembers and he forgets the time you gave him cash when he needed it.

Granted the NBA is a business. But even in a business, credit must be given where credit is due. For all the criticism people are giving Rafer, please also give him his credit.

My apologies if I sound righteous, patronising, condescending, etc. I only had the best of intentions when making this post, and I respect everyone's fair, honest and frank opinions. It is what makes this board the greatest.

 

Dude, I've not once argued about his total efficiency. Only a blatant idiot or blind man would think Rafer is a good, efficient, overall player. I said he was efficient in a couple aspects of his game. I'm not arguing "basketball efficiency". Fine, I'll go your way... Rafer is very astute at not turning the ball over. There, better?

Great, and we agree on something. I never argued this point. I said that Rafer's weaknesses were shooting and scoring. But, then again, we all know that.

OK, not following the comparison between a NBA starting PG who has to constantly handle and pass the ball, doing it for 35+ minutes a night, a defense set out to stop him and not turning the ball over; and you standing around a court not touching the ball. That's like saying a virgin has done just as good a job not catching an STD as the guy who's practiced safe sex with over 400 women.

All I'm saying is... Ah, screw it, it's not worth it...

RAFER SUCKS!!!!

 

I'm not a Rafer hater, and I think a case could be made for him being the best starting option, but you stats actually point to the opposite because they don't ake into accountminutes played, opportunities and per minute rates. They arejust per game stats which are skewed by a players usage onhis team. Francis wasn't healthy and wason a team with toomany score first guards and James was never fully used in Minn last year. Their minutes played stats actually dismissed therestof the points you made.

What they really show is Raferwas getting a lot of minutes as the only real option, not durability. The 3 points made shows that he was in an offense where he wasgetting a lot of 3pt opportunities and players with a better percentage (James) would have converted those at a higher rate equaling more 3ptfgs made. James and Rafers per min asst rate are very similar so you can't make the case that rafer was more of a playmaker. He just had more opportunities. His 2 pt fg% and ft% actually limit his options offensively and therefore limit the ways teams have to guard him. This diminishes his "playmaking" ability.

James appears to have been much better suited to the situation last year. Whether that holds true with a new coach and system remains to be seen. Yet, I doubt Adelman an Morey would have gone after two PG's (I don't count SF because he kind of fell in their lap as opposed to being sought and acquired) if they felt Rafer would be the answer.

 

I guess I should have gone all the way through. Clutch made most of these points just before me.

 

Shrugs... everyone presented tons of information. I don't know why ya'll had to go into such depths of numerical interpretation though.

I came to the conclusion that Steve Francis was going to play the 2 guard role since they signed him. I do have to thank you for all the great information though. A lot of it backs that concept up quite well.

 

Clutch,
The problem with statistics (other than 75% of them being made up) is that you can turn the numbers any way you want to make them work in your favor.

So without numbers, I want to clarify my arguement.

a. We won 50 plus games last year with Yao and TMac missing a large % of games and with Rafer as our starting point guard
b. Rafer deserves more credit that he receives for helping lead us to the fifth best record in the league
c. I am not saying that Rafer is a better player than James or Francis. But I am saying that last year he was more durable (aka - played more) and as a result... put up better numbers
d. I am also saying that if you reduce Rafer's minutes, I contend that his all around shooting percentages will go up. Add that to his good assist numbers and low turnovers... makes him a great option for starting point guard
e. As several other posters stated... most likely we are going to see Rafer/James at point and Francis at the two.

Much like the Free Luke Scott movement. I am starting the Free Rafer Alston movement!

 

Rafer is not a legit starting pg on any contender. Miami decided that even Smush would be better than him.

Rafer sucks at shooting, cannot finish at the rim, and isn't clutch. End of story.

 

This isn't true at at. They decided Smush as a free agent signing for less than half the salary worked for them better than giving up assets for Rafer. The only possibly fair deals had Haslem for Rafer + (Hayes) or Williams for Rafer and garbage. It is easy to see why both teams couldn't agree to any one deal.

Only partly true. Rafer is a decent 3 shooter and doesn't fold under pressure. The rest of the crit is fair.

Rafer would help quite a few teams, including playoff contenders. Unless Williams stays healthy and Smush tuns things around, one of them is Miami. Boston, LAL, and Denver are others.

So if a solid value deal for Rafer isn't there (Doleac without a #1 pick included is crappy value), by all means hold on to him if nothing more than a good back-up PG.

 

I'm a huge fan of getting both James and Francis back but let's refrain from using too many hyperboles.