VY was at my family's clothing store yesterday with craig sager. now i really hope the Texans draft him b/c then he'd become a regular client and i'm sure we'd start hanging out all the time.
I get to meet Pat Sajak! Like, I suppose you could do better than that. No way! Because it seems to me that he would be a pretty decent guy, I must say. What If we became best friends -- best friends in the so I would just like, phone his house up, and say, "Is Pat there? Just tell him it's me!" Sense, now that I think of it. Like, I suppose Pat Sajak doesn't have, like, over a million friends, probably. But then again, maybe he doesn't. It's difficult to say. Oh, this is completely insane!
Let’s see Ric. Carr was 5th in the Heisman voting. Further, I was a bigger supporter of Carr than you were. (though we both apparently overrated Harrington) http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=23700&page=2&pp=20&highlight=harrington+carr (Quote:Also originally posted by TexasG He (Harrington) could possibly go top 5 as well as Carr.) Hum, last part seems a lot of what I liked about Carr back in 01, only one Vincent Young brings in spades. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=27325&page=2&pp=20&highlight=harrington+carr Right about Leftwich, missed one Carson Palmer, but no one else brought him up either, or one Mike Vick, who had yet to take a college snap I believe. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=27533&highlight=harrington+carr Why again are you not more interested in VY. OK Coauch ended up sucking, perhaps like Harrington in part due to injury. Right again to put Leftwich there. None of Clausen, Grossman, Eli or Simms I would take over Carr. No QB last year did less with more IMO than one Eli Manning So Ric, which part of these key attributes in a QB does VY not have? You already mentioned charisma and leadership as factors too Ric, good call on Peyton being a choker. However Eli is too, maybe a family thing.
right, because passing yards are always relevant when discussing RBs. let me ask you something, RM95 - what's my opinion of VY? and the answer is not, "well, since you're pro-bush, i assume it's negative" because my opinion of bush has absolutely ZERO to do with VY. if VY never existed, i'd say the same exact things about bush because it's based on watching bush, not knocking VY down. if i've said anything about VY in this forum, i guarantee it's been overwhemingly positive. i would never knock his opponents, or break apart his game or try to expose him UNLESS done in response to people doing the same meaningless thing to bush, which, i promise, happens much, too much. the revisionism is what really bothers me. case in point, it wasn't the fresno game that vaulted bush to the top of the heisman race, it was the ND game, a full five weeks prior. he then cemented it against fresno and clinched it against UCLA.
interesting to read, but these are pulled so far out of context - when did i post these? september? october? not that its relevant, but... initially, i was skeptical of carr. seemed to kind of come out of nowhere, in an admitedly weaker conference, etc., etc., etc. two... actually, three - four things eventually swayed my opinion. 1) as the year progressed, i was writing nearly weekly pieces for the site, and read up on carr a lot, and started to really believe in the guy; 2) i befriended an independent scout who was head-over-heels convinced carr was the man and in endless IM threads, he convinced me, as well; 3) i had faith in the texans' staff and trusted their judgement (LOL); 4) i went and watched carr play when frenso state came to SMU and he seemed ot have IT. now? i waffle on carr. i don't think he's very good, but i have no idea why - is it him? was it coaching? the OL? has he been burned once too often? if kubiak can find in carr what SO many saw back in early 2002, then i think we'll be OK at QB. unfortunately, it's going to cost us $8M to find out. it is, far and away, the biggest failing of capers/casserly's regime.
That's great Ric. I've never claimed to know how you feel about VY. I'm merely pointing out that getting annoyed by people hyping one guy while pointing out what they believe are detriments in another is absurd. People are entitled to have differing opinions about players just like you're entitled to feel that way about VY and Bush. In case you haven't noticed, people are debating who to take with the 1st pick-Bush, Young, or trade down. Of course people are going to argue why they would take one over the other. Many times that opinion is reached because they feel one of the players has a better chance of being successful in the NFL for one reason or another. In explaining that, of course they're going to point out the reasons a) why they like one player so much, and b) why they don't like the other player or c) why they like one player more than the other. I'm not understanding why that's so hard to grasp.
im pretty much with rm95 here. the fact is, if we really wanted to use this draft to help our team, we should trade down. we have holes all over this roster on both sides of the ball. but if there's superstar talent at the top of the draft you have to take it. i dont know who's gonna end up being better bush/vy/leinhart and neither do any of you. none of you guys know how to scheme an nfl offense. the only reason why im on these threads is to make fun of aggsy and i dont like to see VY badmouthed. the one thing that sways me is the mileage you typically get in a back. like nick said in another thread (or maybe it was this one) marshall faulk was a great back. he won mvps and a super bowl, but in the end his prime was like 3 years. of course anyone would be happy with a career like marshall's, but you see alot of cases where teams have running backs by committee that dont include first round picks. so you have to question why would you invest a #1 overall on a RB? this isnt a knock on reggie bush, its simply the nature of the position he plays.
....but taken as a whole, the defenses they played (mind you, by a MULTIPURPOSE back who's versatility and receiving ability is touted as the difference between himself and others - so I don't see why passing yards shouldn't count) Did he take the lead? yes...did he add to that lead in remaining weeks? yes...I don't feel like looking up old Heisman watch archives to prove ths, but if you're implying that he was a runaway winner by the same margin with 5 weeks left in the season - that implication is not supported...and constitutes revisionism in and of itself. Finally, I don't see how emphasizing his awesome performance against a defense as numerically (and visually) poor as Notre Dame's helps his cause too much - did you see the Fiesta Bowl? Ohio State's skill players (holmes, Ginn, smith) simply were just too fast for ND's less-talented defenders and ran right by them. I can see why Bush thrived against that crew.
The dates are in the threads. I didn't bring them up to show you were not supportive of Carr near draft day--clearly you were supportive of Carr and the Texans choice by then. I brought it up because you suggested I didn't know about Carr as a college player, and that if I did know more I wouldn't have said VY and maybe ML would be drafted ahead of them. Well, I did know David Carr, thought highly of him before just about any on this forum did (along with TexasG). David Carr was an excellent prospect, worthy of the #1 pick that year, but he is no where near the special prospect VY is IMO (by your own criteria, see below). If VY wasn't an option for the Texans, I say sure see where Carr + Bush +AJ + DD or Carr + AJ+ DBrick + DD + others comp (for moving down off Bush/ML) will lead you. But the bottom line is VY is available to the Texans and that changes all equations. It is neither an indictment against Carr nor against Bush to build your team of one Vincent Young, just a better opportunity (financially and talent wise) to build a great NFL team IMO. 4 years ago you layed out that size, speed and arm strength were the most fundamental attributes of a potential franchise pro QB. I have yet to see a QB prospect with any greater combination of them, perhaps sans Elway if you give extra weight to arm strength over speed. VY’s also has some awfully big other qualities and achievements (charisma, leadership, composure, accuracy, winning) as well as some concerns. The major concerns seem to be throwing motion (e.g., Carr) and lack of pro-style offense familiarity. As for the latter issue (type of offense), it sure didn’t take McNabb or McNair long to make that transition to the NFL (they were effective in the NFL in less than 2 years) and they faced not nearly the quality and complexity of opponents’ defenses. The attributes you seemed to have layed out about what you want in a QB VY seems to have in spades, arguably as much as any pro QB prospect, ever. Doesn't mean he will be a great NFLer--Jeff George wasn't a great pro QB either despite some pretty great attributes as a prospect, but one has to be intruiged about VY's unique qualities and attributes. At a minimum I would think you would want to strongly consider one Vincent Young pending Texan scouts evaluations and combine like figures.
Desert Scar: Bottom line. If you want VY, you better start figuring out what we might be able to get for Carr. Because if he doesn't field a good offer (and at $8 Mill., I don't think he will), then your entire month-long rationing is moot. You make good points, but the Texans won't give up Carr and Bush for VY and a scrap 2nd rounder. It's just not going to happen, and I don't want to see you break a blood vessel when it doesn't.
Actually, it went thusly: Ohio State - Vince vaults into the lead. Notre Dame game - Reggie Bush takes narrow lead. Leinart falls completely out. Four quiet games and Vince Young goes for 500 yards against Okie State - Vince retakes the lead. Fresno State - Reggie storms to the front. A&M - Vince's poor performance almost cements it for Bush. UCLA - Bush clinches the Heisman. Rose Bowl - Vince makes everyone who voted for Reggie look foolish. Weird little tidbit - for all the talk of Pac-10 defenses - Vince had as many 200 yard rushing games against pac-10 teams as Bush.
but i'm not debating who should be drafted first; i'm pointing out the fallacy of pumping up one player by ripping another one - it's disingenious. so how can i be annoyed with people's opinions differing from mine if i'm not offering an opinion? i don't begrudge people who favor young over bush, or people who want to bask in the season young had. young had a great year; but so, too, did reggie bush. so why are the young backers of the mind that the only way to really separate the two is to bash bush? is there not room for both players to have turned in trascendent college seasons? can young's season not stand on its own? is it really necessary to go back and recast bush's season as overrated? btw, another beautiful example of what i'm talking about, courtesy of Puedlfor: Rose Bowl - Vince makes everyone who voted for Reggie look foolish. that's a ridiculous comment; it completely devalues bush's season as if his landslide victory was a fluke. not only have bowl games never been a determining factor in heisman voting, but VY had a chance to win the thing - if he had gone rose bowl over A&M... don't know if he wins it (bush had a pretty definitive last word), but it certainly becomes a neck-and-neck race to the finish line. but he didn't. and bush earned the award. no one looked foolish. it just gnaws at me that anyone with an ounce of objectivity could recast bush's season as anything but extraordinary, and that's independent of who the texans should draft. i guess, in short, play fair. both guys had great years, both guys are worthy of the pick. i'd like to see debate start there.
While your show of indignation is appreciatied, if the journalists who VOTED FOR BUSH are the ones saying "After tonight, I would change my vote" - who are you to argue with it? Are you a member of the Downtown Athletic Club and somehow concerned with the sanctity of the process and the vote? It's their vote - print and broadcast media personnel stated their opinions that after the Rose Bowl, which, like it or not, consituted a part of this college football season (if not, then what, is it part of next season?), they believed Young to be the best player in the country - this is not like the electoral college or something of procedural significance. I don't see why you get so agitated about it.
But how can it be a fallacy if they really believe that Bush has serious question marks and they really believe his season was overrated? Just because you don't believe those things doesn't mean other people can't disagree with you. Most people point out a) why they feel Young would be better for this team and b) why they don't feel that Bush is. I am so far away from understanding why that's disingenuous. And the notion that only VY supporters do this is hysterical. I guess you haven't heard anyone discuss Young's throwing mechanics, his arm strength or his accuracy.
I think his point is that nobody actually believed Bush's season was overrated until VY declared for the draft. Bush won the heisman by one of the largest margin in history, was a no brainer #1 overall pick at one time, remember the "Bush Bowl"? All the Texans fans in the stands during that SF game holding up Reggie Bush posters, signs, etc.... And then VY declared and then all of the sudden Bush is overrated, shouldn't have won the heisman, can't run in between the tackles, etc, etc etc... I may be wrong, but I think thats Ric's point and its a good one IMO.
