[Chron] Bob McNair: Carr's future remains in limbo

bear in mind, they played weeks 9.5-16 w/o their starting C and RT after losing their starting LT in week 2 - think that might've played a role in kubiak's reluctance to throw more? nah, easier to pin it on carr. i mean, trying to quantify nerdy-nerd things like injuries requires a slide rule and all. just ask msn.

kubiak was obviously irked with carr often, and msn, i agree, sage would've seen more PT had he stayed healthy. but did i rip the colts game out of context? because that was the second-to-last game of the season and with the score 24-24, carr threw a 17-yard pass to johnson to set-up the GW field goal. you'd think, if he'd lost confidence in carr, he would have sat onthe tie and played for OT....

 

ok, ric.

 

MM, let me ask you a sincere question(s): did my initial post contain inaccurate statistics? did i purposefully attempt to mislead or misappropriate the numbers? did subsequent posts in any way shift your focus? even a smidge? or did you honestly dismiss every bit of it out of hand with no consideration whatsoever? and if so, why?

genuine question; i'm curious to read your answer...

 

Even after the injuries, that o-line was better than previous ones. You refer later to Kubiak's irritation with Carr. That's not conjecture, either--we all saw it. Those injuries would have impacted both the pass and the run. We have both Carr's horrific performance *and* Kubiak's public irritation with him that point to a reasonable theory: Kubiak lost confidence in Carr.

Again, that o-line was *still* better than last year's. Sorry about the slide rule remark, but your stats were used out of context. Spouting those numbers ignores the huge number of them that were screen passes and dump-offs, and also ignores the games where the Texans relied so much on the run. That doesn't seem like a responsible use of statistics to me. I jest about the slide rule because when watching the game one comes to a different conclusion (in large part due to the nature of the passes, the ridiculous impotence of David's game, and the coach's obvious frustration with him).

You acknowledge these things, yet you dismiss them as evidence that Kubiak may have lost confidence in Carr, deferring to out-of-context statistics?

Absolutely you did, IMO. How did the Texans beat the Colts? By that time in the game, they run all over the Colts D so much that there was finally an opportunity, when the Texans really needed it, to go for a pass, and it worked. Try that the whole game, and the score is more akin to 34-10 in the Colts' favor. So no, one pass, even at the important point in which it came, does *not* communicate confidence from Kubiak in the face of all the other evidence we have before us.

 

no. not at all. and i didn't dismiss it. i said, "ok, ric" because you seemed to be getting worked up about it, and i had no intention of going there again.

i still believe kubiak lost faith in carr. it's ok to disagree.

 

why is last year relevant? it was a bad OL that then lost 3 starters over the course of the year including its two foremost vets for the very same weeks you claim the "head coach all but quit on Carr." and that's not the least bit relevant because.... last year's line was worse? it's entirely 100% carr that kubiak lost confidence in?

and, again, no mention of the injuries along the line. there's no way that was a prominent factor? you felt good with a street FA and a rookie manning the tackle spots?

he threw 23 times that day, msn. his season average was 27.7. using fairly common intuiative logic, it's hard to argue kubiak had "quit" on his QB given that was the second-to-last week of the season.

and it reveals the depths of your bias. he throws 23 passes including one with the game on the line that sets up the winning FG - yet, according to you, if he had tried to pass the whole game... they would have lost 34-10. that's a disconnect in logic. i suggest investing in a slide rule!

my contention isn't that carr is blameless; he certainly is. but he's not entirely to blame, and thus, drawing a conclusion as damning as the HC quit on him is (imo) a case of you applying your own feelings to kubiak and not considering additional information that absolves carr.

 

I love how you are able to skew the stats for what you want to present. It is said that the biggest form of lying is not telling the whole truth. Look at the pass attempts from the Oakland game on. That is the week that it became obvious that the ball was being taken out of Carr's hands. You also neglected to mention that Carr was yanked twice for poor play in "games 1-8", of which Rosenfels threw for 11 attempts on top of Carr's 27 at Dallas, and 25 attempts on top of Carr's 21 at Tennessee, respectively.

 

not worked up in the least. i was just curious as your response read very dismissive. i don't absolve carr; nor am i excusing him. but there was evidence to suggest kubiak hadn't lost confidence in carr (subjective, yes) and certainly additional info that was every bit as relevant, imo; namely, the injuries along the OL.

if, for sake of ease, you blame carr 100% (or even 90%; 85% - whatever); i simply blame his less. my "issue" (for lack of a better word) remains - i think the other 30% is being ignored, minimized or rendered un-important by a singular focus on carr. and i'm not upset or angry about it, nor do i blame those who are focusing on carr - i certainly understand it. i'm merely trying to lessen the carr-hate in hopes it'll spur more meaningful interaction.

we're going nowhere on carr. everyone's dug in. i find the additional problems far more interesting; it's why i'm always pushing away from carr.

make sense? (not angry, btw; or upset. or riled. or anything.)

 

absolutely. i understand that's your position on it.

 

If the oline is better (and btw the receivers *and* TE also better), then it is reasonable to assume your QB should perform better, especially if he *is* better, as you and I and a host of others believed. That's why it's relevant.

Exaggerating my argument (or anything) in an attempt to shoot it down is a logical fallacy known as hyperbole. I didn't say that it was "entirely 100% Carr that Kubiak lost confidence in".

No mention? Here, lemme quote myself:

Did you want me to reference the o-line every other sentence??

How many of those throws went for more than 8 yards, Ric? How many? You're throwing that number out there out of context. 20 dump-off passes does not communicate confidence in your QB.

You're not biased at all, are you? How about let's stick to the discussion at hand.

No, I was referring to the 17-yard pass. You know, the one that *wasn't* a dump-off for 5-7 yards? If they try that the whole game, they lose 34-10.

It is, indeed. Your misrepresenting my statements and then judging them according to your misrepresentation is most certainly a disconnect in logic.

Haha! Actually, I should have been more clear when I typed the original post.

No one has said that. Hyperbole, look it up.

I said, "the head coach all but quit on him. Surely you see the difference? This is now three times in one post you've stretched my statements beyond what I said and then attacked your own version. How about you quit doing that?

Your opinion is, if I may quote you, full of "****". You contort my statements away from what I and then accuse me of projection based on your version of what I said. Classy, Ric.

Other than joking around about the slide rule, I've tried to be diplomatic discussing this with you. But I can see it getting personal, so I'm out. Go ahead and twist the statements I've inlcuded in this post as well, whatever you spew will not merit a response.

 

Here are some statistics:

Yards per attempt, month-by-month, for David Carr:
September: 7.7
October: 6.3
November: 6.1
December: 5.3

Yup, Kubs was lettin' him air it out, all right.

 

Misread you - my bad. I think that MW will pan out and be worthy of his draft status. I think once he is 100% he will be a beast off the edge.

 

you know, msn, this is twice now you've jumped from reasonable to dramatic on me, and whatever i'm doing to cause it, i apologize, but where and when did *i* make this personal? was it before or after the slide rule comment...? must've been after that since that was in your initial response.

this is what you initially posted: "The head coach all but quit on Carr." if you'd like to now retroactively debate the merits of how many % points we should assign a statement as damning as this one, have at it. but imo, it implicitly blames david carr 100% for the offensive game changing over the final 8 weeks.

and if you don't believe it 100% blames him, then what in the hell are you arguing about since i'm merely listing other possibilites for kubiak getting more conservative as the season wore on - you know, the "all but" part...

 

in fact, the more i think about it, msn, the more angry your response makes me ("angry" being relative since this is, after all, a message board and i don't particularly care beyond the environment of the board).

would it not be fair to say that in your initial post, not only did you get personal, but also hyperbolic? or is using a slide rule to analyze games a reasonable idea and one you intended as a compliment? and yet, here you are, 2-3 posts later, whining like a baby about *me* getting personal and exaggerating things in order to knock them down...? unreal.

 

Ric

I must give you credit
You defend your guy well
Keep it up
I don't agree but I find your tenacity and perseverence amazing!

Rocket River
STEVE FRANCIS WAS ROBBED!!!

 

thanks, but i honestly don't defend him; i try and extinguish the hatred toward him because, imo, too much of it is buried in deep bais and therefore paints an inaccurate picture of the situation.

i frankly don't care who's on the team; i just want them to win. i believe it can with david carr at QB, but won't enjoy it even a percentage point less if it's with someone else.

 

No, you left out the Oakland game, which is where it all started.

In games one through eleven the quarterback passing attempts accounted for an average of 34.36 per game. Even if you take Rosenfels out of the equation completely Carr still averaged 30.81 apg by himself.

Now from the Oakland game on (the game in which it became apparent Kubiak had taken the ball out of Carr hands), the quarterback passing attempts went down to an average of 20.6 per game.

 

no, i actually mentioned the oakland game as an example of kubiak most definitely sitting on carr. he then threw 23, 28 and 23 passes the next three weeks before another awful performance against cleveland.

are you among those blaming this on carr? was it not a component of several factors? the games being closer, the OL losing two more starters, the running game getting better...? notice, 55% of dayne total rushing yards for the year came in the three games after oakland.

so did kubiak "quit" on carr; or did he finally see his running game emerge? again, as i mentioned in my response to MM, if this reads as me excusing carr, then i'm not properly communicating my thoughts. i just don't believe we can definitively conclude kubiak's coaching in the final 8 games rests on carr's shoulders.