You need to look at YOUR candidate if you are concerned about substandard service during Vietnam. So, you are hung up over the fact that ON CHRISTMAS DAY, he wasn't in Cambodia. He was apparently there in the days immediately after Christmas and several times early the next year. Still doesn't rise to the amount of exaggeration our president has exhibited. Of course there are no records, they were destroyed by Nixon. Of course the CO says it never happened, it's classified. You are just willing to believe ANYTHING the GOP throws out there to distract you from Bush's horrible record, huh? It shows.
is that he is telling a lie. If you get shot at, you are risking your life. Plain and simple. Black and white. The question is why is O'Neill painting as negative picture of Kerry as possible. Could it be for partisan reasons? The guy whose life Kery saved says bullets were aflying. Is he a lier too? Small wheels go around in small circles.
your absolutely right “A spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.”-- The New Republic, 10/16/00 let me try to get a grasp on your thinking process here basso you believe Bush showed up for service, yet no one has come forward to say they remeber him you believe a book, financed by Republicans and written by a known Republican activist you believe stories told by vets who have changed their story you believe official military records that Bush showed up for service you don't believe official military records that gave Kerry 5 medals you believe a story told by a man who claims there was no enemy fire, but that same man recieved a Bronze star for the same incidient he is now claiming never happened you really expect intelligence, rational people to buy this crap?
well, i'm sure intelligent people would be able to spell...but seriously, one of the prime claims in the swiftvets book has been proven, by the kerry campaign's own admission, if not kerry himself, to be accurate. yet, you're still trying to defend it, why? kerry used his lie on the floor of the US senate, in an attempt to discredit his own governement. why you continue to dodge this issue, while not surprising, is still incredibly sad. admit it, you hate bush so much you'd vote for Osama (not Obama) if it meant defeating bush. not that Kerry=bin laden, but you got to admit, there's something extremely fishy about his continual harping on his vietnam war legend, and then when part of it is proven to be a lie, questions the patriotism and motives of his opponent.
Ahh, a frustrated basso plays his final trump card. I told you this thread was amusing. You're with him or against him.
Let's say all the smears are right. Let's say that Kerry, like any other veteran who has ever lived, exaggerated his service a little. Kerry's got all the medals and awards to prove his valor, but let's say his stories are indeed a little exaggerated. Does it really matter? Wouldn't you rather have a fighter who exaggerates than a coward who avoided fighting? I'm in awe that Bush Administration chickenhawks continue to use Kerry's stellar Vietnam service AGAINST him, but I'm more amazed that so many Americans think the specifics of Kerry's Vietnam service are all that important.
Just an intersting tidbit I read Military Documents Cast Doubt on Kerry Critic's Version of Combat, Published Report Says The Associated Press Published: Aug 19, 2004 WASHINGTON (AP) - Military records appear to contradict claims by a vocal critic of Sen. John Kerry that the Democratic presidential candidate lied about coming under gunfire during a mission in Vietnam, according to The Washington Post. The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday. Thurlow, also like Kerry, commanded a Navy Swift boat during the war. Thurlow swore in an affidavit last month that Kerry was "not under fire" when he rescued Lt. James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River. Thurlow's records, obtained by the Post under the Freedom of Information Act, include references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at all five boats in the flotilla that day. In his Bronze Star citation, Thurlow is praised for helping a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him." Thurlow is a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans who have aired a television advertisement attacking Kerry's war record. Kerry has described how his boat came under fire from the river banks after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. Swift boat. Kerry and members of his crew say the firing continued as Kerry leaned over to fish out Rassman, who was blown overboard in another explosion. Thurlow described Kerry's Bronze Star citation as "totally fabricated," saying "I never heard a shot." Thurlow, a registered Republican, said he is angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command. Thurlow told the Post that he got the award for helping to rescue the boat that was mined. "This casts doubt on anybody's awards," he said. "It is sickening and disgusting." He said he believed his award would be fraudulent if it was based on coming under enemy fire. "We weren't under fire," he insisted. Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he would not authorize release of his military records because he feared the Kerry campaign would discredit him. Members of Kerry's crew have said Kerry is telling the truth. Rassman said he has vivid memories of enemies firing at him from both banks. AP-ES-08-19-04 0047EDT
With all due respect to Thurlow, it was known long before the WaPo story came out that he recieved the Bronze Star in the same incident as Kerry. That incident has been reported many times in recent months, yet Thurlow has never, until today, come out and said that there were problems with his award. And come on... if the story he is telling is true and he did think the award was for coming to the aid of a disabled boat without enemy fire, doesn't that seem to be about on the same plane as pulling a guy out of the water without enemy fire? Yet he never mentioned anything about it until today? Oh right, he just happened to lose his commendation so there's no way he could know his was a fraudulent medal. Seems like if folks are upset that Kerry messed up some chronology from 1968 over a decade ago, they should be equally upset with Thurlow for not remembering what he got his Freaking Bronze Star for... This is all pure and utter BS. Kerry called 'em on it today... ball's in your court Mr. Bush.
you continue to miss the point. if all kerry had done was mess up some details of his service, it'd be no big deal.. it's where he messed up, and why he messed up that this has become as issue "(leaving aside the larger issue of kerry's continued fetishization of his war record). he "messed up" on the floor of the U.S. senate. he "messed up" in order to score political points against an admin he disagreed with. it was willfully dishonest, and he dishonored his own service, the service of those he served with, the institution of the senate, and the american people. that should be an issue in this campaign.
I think you continue to miss the point that this group has zero credibility and your post is about as big a smear as anything the Swifties have done. Everything in your post is conjecture... either that or you did a Vulcan mind-meld with Kerry and are privy to his innermost thoughts. If so, we'd appreciate a similar mind-meld of W. I eagerly await your report. Speaking of Kerry... ________________ Kerry: Bush lets attack ads do 'dirty work' Democrat calls on president to denounce commercials BOSTON, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Democratic presidential candidate and Vietnam War veteran John Kerry on Thursday shot back at attack ads questioning his service record during the war and called on President Bush to denounce the TV commercials. The group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have aired the ads. Its contributors include several major Republican donors. (GOP donor helps finance anti-Kerry veterans group) "They're a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the president won't denounce them tells you everything you need to know -- he wants them to do his dirty work," Kerry told a cheering crowd at a meeting of the International Association of Fire Fighters in Boston. "Of course, the president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: Bring it on!" Kerry challenged. In response, Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said Kerry was aware his statements are false. "Sen. Kerry knows President Bush has called his service in Vietnam noble ... and the Bush campaign has tried to have a debate about the future, not the past," Schmidt said. But Schmidt did not address Kerry's charge that Bush was sitting back and watching as other groups attacked Kerry's Vietnam service. In the commercials, former sailors accuse Kerry of lying to win two of his combat decorations, a Purple Heart and the Bronze Star, and criticize his anti-war activism after he returned home from Vietnam. The Kerry campaign released its own ad Thursday in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, featuring former Green Beret Lt. Jim Rassmann talking about Kerry's heroic actions when he saved Rassmann's life during fighting in Vietnam. A statement from the Kerry campaign said Rassmann is a registered Republican. Kerry's campaign said none of the men in the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth commercial served in the same boat as the Democratic nominee. The ad includes Larry Thurlow, who commanded one of five swift boats in the Mekong Delta during a March 13, 1969, incident for which Kerry was decorated and Thurlow himself earned a Bronze Star. Thurlow has said the boats in the group were not fired on when Kerry went back to rescue Rassmann, who had fallen into the water after an explosion damaged one of the vessels. But Rassmann told CNN's "Inside Politics" on August 5 that Thurlow "has a very unusual recollection of events." "I was receiving fire in the water every time I came up for air," said Rassmann, who has campaigned for Kerry since January. Rassmann said he agreed with another Vietnam veteran, Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, who has called the ad in which Thurlow appears "dishonest and dishonorable." Thurlow's account differs not only from those of Kerry and Rassmann but also that given in the Navy's letter awarding Kerry the Bronze Star. The letter finds Kerry exhibited "great personal courage under fire" in rescuing Rassmann, an Army officer who recommended Kerry for the decoration. The Navy citation for Thurlow's Bronze Star also said that "all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks." Thurlow said Thursday he did not even know he had received a Bronze Star until after he left the Navy, and he had not seen the citation in 30 years. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is registered as an independent "527" committee, named for a section of the federal tax code. A number of 527 political groups have run issue ads during the campaign. Earlier this week, Kerry denounced a commercial sponsored by the group MoveOn.org that criticized Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Texas Air National Guard. (Kerry condemns anti-Bush ad) In an interview last week on CNN's "Larry King Live," the president condemned 527 groups in general and said their ads shouldn't be aired. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/kerry.attackads/index.html
"Sen. Kerry knows President Bush has called his service in Vietnam noble ... and the Bush campaign has tried to have a debate about the future, not the past," Schmidt said. But Schmidt did not address Kerry's charge that Bush was sitting back and watching as other groups attacked Kerry's Vietnam service. Sort of like Bush calling for answers in the Plame case by encouraging his staff to come forward and then not mentioning that they have lawyered up and refuse to cooperate with the investigation. Plausible deniability only in Bizarro World.
Ooops. The Swifties need to keep bailing... __________________ Confronted with MMFA research, O'Neill denied $7,000 in contributions to Republicans John E. O'Neill, co-author of the anti-Kerry book Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, denied having made $7,000 in contributions to Republican candidates and causes -- directly contradicting Federal Election Commission (FEC) records detailing his contributions. Appearing on the August 17 edition of FOX News Channel's Special Report with Brit Hume, O'Neill claimed that half of the nearly $15,000 in contributions (first identified by Media Matters for America) were actually made by his "law partner who has almost the same name, Edward J. O'Neill," but he didn't explain why the FEC lists the contributions under his name. FOX News Channel managing editor and chief Washington correspondent Brit Hume asked O'Neill to respond to "allegations" that he had seen "on websites and so on -- that you [O'Neill] are a Republican activist and partisan ... who has given something on the order of $14,000 to Republican candidates." O'Neill said of MMFA's research, "that is not true"; of the nearly $15,000 in donations to Republicans, he said, "[a]ctually, about half of them were mine." When Hume asked about "the other $7,000," O'Neill claimed: "Those are actually funds, as nearly as I can tell, that were given my -- by some -- my law partner who has almost the same name, Edward J. O'Neill. I simply didn't give them. I would have been happy to give them. I just didn't." But for each donation MMFA identified in our original summary of O'Neill's contributions, the Center for Responsive Politics (CRP) database -- which uses data directly from the Federal Election Commission -- lists the contributor unambiguously as "John E. O'Neill." The CRP database does contain records of political contributions by an Edward J. O'Neill, John E. O'Neill's partner at a Texas law firm. According to CRP, Edward J. O'Neill donated $1,000 to then-Texas Governor George W. Bush's campaign in 1999, $250 to former Democratic presidential candidate General Wesley K. Clark's primary campaign in 2003, and similar amounts to other candidates from both parties. Though CRP records show that both Edward J. O'Neill and John E. O'Neill contributed to then-Texas Republican candidate for U.S. Congress Clark Kent Ervin in the early 1990s, the record of Edward J. O'Neill's July 1992 donation of $250 is distinct from the records of John E. O'Neill's two $1,000 donations to Ervin in 1991 and 1992. The names, dates, and amounts of these donations are all different, and the contributions are for different amounts. Also during his interview with Hume, O'Neill insisted, "I'm not a Republican or a Democrat." MMFA has previously noted O'Neill's close ties to the Nixon administration, including to the notorious Charles Colson; that O'Neill voted in the 1998 Republican primary in Texas, according to an April 21 Houston Chronicle examination of Harris County records; that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are backed by a longtime donor to President George W. Bush; and that the group's media contact is longtime Republican p.r. operative Merrie Spaeth, as Salon.com's Joe Conason reported in May. http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408180004
how cute of kerry, yelling "bring it on" right after complaining that bush had, well, brought it on...in fact, swiftvets, like moveon, is a 527 organization, made possible by the good folks at mccain/feingold. it would be illegal for bush to have any contact w/ them.
Nice nuance. I suppose the wall is as strict there as it was between Ken Starr's shop and Paula Jones' attorneys? Fact is, Bush doesn't have to have any contact with them to denounce their ad.
He doesn't have to have ANY contact to condemn the attack ads as Kerry has (including the ones by his supporters).
well, kerry speak w/ forked tongue, since as he was mildly condemming the ad, wes clark in his role as campaign spokesman was defending them...how...nuanced. but, more to the point, no one has said the christmas in cambodia story was true. quite the contrary, in fact. it'd be nice to see one of you acknowledge that inconvenient fact, w/o the requisite attack on bush.
Go back and read the thread. I've acknowledged it at least twice and probably more. What I don't acknowledge are the leaps you take after that.
