Thanks mc mark. Those years of representing bankruptcy debtors did me a world of good. They changed the way I see these issues. I am a conservative, but not a ideologue.
I am quite sure that all of the ones in the post who keep calling me out because I have said I believe able body people who refuse to even try to find work should not be entitled to welfare, are giving every single penny that they don't need for their selves to the government so it can be given to others(That is Marxism). I salute you brothers. I just pay my taxes and help others personally when I can. You people are truly awesome to keep absolutely nothing for yourselves since that is the way you interpret the scriptures. I have been accused of not being a Christian, that I don't believe in paying taxes, that I don't believe in helping others solely because I believe people who can work should work. I have said several times that welfare should be for the truly needy and a safety net for workers who fall on hard times. I have not once said welfare is a bad thing or that paying taxes is a bad thing have I. I have been nice and cordial while wishing others well only to have hate filled replies. BetterthanI, you never responded to the abortion question. Also for your response "Sorry for the delay in responding: I was working my second job...as director of youth and adult music ministry at a Disciples of Christ Church. So, yeah, assuming that I'm not a Christian just because I don't agree with what you're saying? You = fail." I didn't assume anything. I simply asked because your earlier responses that made me question because you should realize that a man is not saved by his works alone. You are only going to heaven if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. If you believe ANYTHING else you do not understand the Bible. Refman, what part of my responses that said truly needy people should get welfare did you not understand? You accuse me of being against the elderly however I have not said one thing against Social Security or Medicare. I support those programs. I am quite sure that most of the people you have dealt with fit within the truly needy phrase. If you don't think their is a lot of welfare fraud then you are crazy. My only beef is with people who do not even try to find work, not truly needy people or able body people who are trying to find work. I have a clean conscience and I know I am going to heaven I hope all of you feel the same. If I have offended anyone I am sorry.
On my reading of the New Testament, people who presume to "know" they are going to heaven are among those who should probably should be most concerned.
Of course we don't all do that. Because we are humans, and humans are fallible. But then again, WE aren't the ones who stood on a soapbox and called "social justice" communist Nazism, so I don't think we really need to defend our positions. You, on the other hand... Again, you sided with those using hate-speech to call Christians around the globe who work for social justice "communists" and "Nazis". You equated this with this It's an insult to Christians, to people who work for social justice, and to those who fought and survived against true evil like the one that gripped the world in the 1930s and 40s. Any opinion voiced about you on this board was not nearly as insulting as the opinions you've put forth. Just because your insult was "nice and cordial" doesn't make it any less of an insult. You sided with a man who did this: to score political points and bumps his ratings. You don't get to feel persecuted when you side with that. Nor will I, since it's not germane to this issue, and would only serve to derail the discussion and cover-up your fallacious logic. So you didn't assume I wasn't Christian, you just questioned my faith. Got it. Your question "Are you even a Christian?" was geared to try to delegitimize my opinion because I don't believe what you believe. Well guess what? My faith is just fine. Don't worry about my personal journey in faith with Jesus. You should worry about explaining how social justice is communist Nazism, because you still haven't done that. I can't speak for Refman, but my problem with your statements is that they are contradictory. On the one hand, you say that social justice is equivalent to communism and socialism, on the other hand you say you have no problem with welfare, Social Security, and Medicare, all of which fall under the idea of "social justice". If you don't see the contradiction in these two statements, and how it makes your "apology" insincere, then I don't know what else can be said.
As rocketsjudoka has rightly pointed out, my friend here must have a real problem with the early Christian community, because what they practiced in those days (gathering resources together, and distributing to everyone especially those who were less fortunate) essentially amounted to "Marxism". In fact, Ananias and Sapphira died because they tried to deceive everyone about how much they were giving to the collective purse. 1. The bible does not oppose wealth redistribution. The bible opposes laziness, yes -- but I am alarmed when cml750 comes and takes a verse about thieves and applies it broadly to less fortunate people who cannot, for example, afford basic healthcare because it is way too expensive. That kind of world view, my friend, is not Christian at all. 2. How does "social justice" equate to "wealth redistribution" again? Are you trying to redefine the English language?
You obviously have never read "The Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx. If you had, you would not make such a silly statement. Marxism does not start with you having money and giving what you do not need to government. It starts with government having everything and deciding what you need. You have it totally backward. Under a Marxist form of government, you could not own a business. Government owned all businesses. This is not a difficult concept if you choose to cast aside bravado and demonization and rather choose to look at history and think critically. I never said that you did not concede that. I merely asked who gets to decide who is truly needy (which you declined to answer). It appears that it is you who failed to understand a post, not I. Keep lobbing stones from your glass house. This is where I commend you to take a remedial reading course at your local learning annex. NEVER did I accuse you of being against the elderly. Never once did I accuse you of anything. I merely pointed out that your baseless claim that there are scores of freeloaders living only of of government programs is bunk. It is tripe. It is crap. I pointed out that most of the recipients are elderly or disabled. Paranoid, much? There is fraud in every system. You try your best to devise a system to minimize that fraud. You seem to take a baby with the bathwater approach and lump all people together unless they appear TO YOU to be "truly needy." It must be nice to sit in your Ivory Tower of judgment to decide who are needy and who are louts. For somebody who claims to be a devout Christian, you have obviously spent a lot of time studying the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Pity you have managed to completely miss the point.
Exactly. That...and the fact that he believes that he can judge who is needy and who is not. All of that holier than thou, pontificating, sanctimonious nonsense just does not seem to be a good emulation of Jesus Christ.
cml, you are giving some of our most respected Christian members a bad name and just reinforcing the stereotype for those who believe all Christians feel the way you do. I have spent over twenty years in public service with nearly all of it in direct delivery of the "welfare" you bemoan. Let me say this as clearly as I can: you are clueless. I know it might interfere with your dime-store deacon interpretation of the bible but go here for some information. Maybe you can have some sort of epiphany: http://www.fns.usda.gov/fns/data.htm Use the search function. http://www.ndsn.org/dec96/welfare.html http://www.urban.org/welfare/index.cfm?gclid=COW77-XQuaACFWV75Qodwz2LUw http://www.urban.org/welfare/workingfamilies.cfm http://www.urban.org/publications/310835.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447257/ http://anitra.net/homelessness/columns/anitra/eightmyths.html Find this book and have someone read it to you: Myth of the Welfare Queen by David Zucchino Now go cherry pick the things from the data that will reinforce your own misguided beliefs.
You sir are getting absolutely absurd now. You throw Bible quotes at me about giving away all ones wealth to the poor to follow the Lord all the while saying I am some terrible person when you don't even follow what you preach. You sir are a hypocrite. I do exactly what I say I do: I work hard, pay my taxes, and give freely to those in need as I am instructed to do by the scriptures. You believe the Bible applies to others but not yourself. Your idea of "social justice" means everyone else should do their part but not yourself. I challenge you to find where I ever said the word Nazi in this thread. You sir are the one who first brought the word communism into this thread. I have been extremely nice and cordial through this entire thread while you have atacked my views. I have made pleas for peace and brotherly love yet you respond with hate. I really think you need to take a long look inwards to release all the pent up hate you have inside. When you respond to this try to let go of some of that hate. I will pray for you brother. Nice cop out on the abortion issue. As a Christian you should not be afraid to speak your mind on abortion. I will not respond again as I do not have time for this foolishness. I have to work for a living. I do wish you all well and have actually enjoyed our discussion. We can at least agree that we are all Rockets fans. I have high hopes for their future.
You sanctimonious hypocrite. You are so busy talking out of both sides of your mouth that it is no wonder nothing anyone else says registers in your bigoted, close-minded, ignorant brain. You are a fool. You represent everything that gives Christianity a bad name, and nothing that makes the religion worthy of the respect I have for those Christians I have come to know. I don't accept your "apology" for offending anyone because you don't mean it. You have, in fact, gone out of your way to offend people. I was trying to decide if you were truly ignorant and oblivious to the truth, or deliberately trying to goad the kind of response you are getting right here. I think the answer is both. "I have been extremely nice and cordial through this entire thread while you have atacked my views. I have made pleas for peace and brotherly love yet you respond with hate. I really think you need to take a long look inwards to release all the pent up hate you have inside. When you respond to this try to let go of some of that hate. I will pray for you brother." You disgusting b*stard.
Brother, what is Christian isn't puffing out your chest and telling everyone how you go to church, pay your taxes and give to charity. The Pharisees did that, too, and you know what Jesus had to say about them. What is Christian certainly isn't telling another person that they don't give to the poor like they should in your opinion. And my friend, what is Christian is most definitely not taking a verse about thieves and applying it to poor people who receive welfare because they cannot afford basic necessities, and branding them as lazy. And what is Christian is certainly not a subscription to the Republican Party manifesto, or the Democratic Party manifesto for that matter. Most certainly, what is Christian is not accusing others of hate because they disagree with your opinion. And above all, the most unchristian thing is being a stumbling block to others who are not in the faith, by driving them further away from God with your words. To be honest with you, if I were not a Christian and I read your words in this thread, I would certainly be less likely to become a Christian afterwards. And you know what Jesus had to say about those who cause others to stumble.
He's gone missing. On purpose, thank god. I don't know exactly why, but suspect it was because of a couple of threads I either didn't read or just glanced at. I wish he would return.
I never said that you were a terrible person: I said that your assertion that Glenn Beck's beliefs reflect Christian beliefs (see: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=5181102&postcount=9 ) was incorrect. Your words say one thing, yet your religion says another. I don't fault you for this: we all do this (Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"), but you can't wave the banner of Christianity to defend your position one minute and then go against it the very next minute. It just doesn't make sense. As hard as you try to make it, this isn't about me: this is about YOU standing up and defending Glenn Beck's assertions that social justice = communism and Nazism. You justify this by saying that "social justice" = helping deadbeat welfare recipients, but that's not what Beck said, and you show nothing to justify this massive leap in logic, so again, your words make no sense. Actually, Glenn Beck brought "communist" and "Nazi" into this thread (see the OP ). You just sided with him. Yeah, you were really nice and cordial when you assumed I was on public assistance because I was in favor of "social justice", calling me a "mooch" on the govt. and then questioned my Christian faith just because I disagreed with you. I don't have any pent up hate. What I have is a lack of patience for fellow Christians who use their faith to look down their nose at those who think differently. But thank you for your prayers. It's not a cop out: I would be happy to speak my mind in a discussion with you about abortion... but only in a thread about abortion. This thread is about Glenn Beck seeing communist Nazis in churches trying to help the poor. See ya.
Apparently, this thread didn't sit well with him, and he decided he didn't enjoy his time here any more. Sad, because he always tried to bring reason to the D&D. OF course, bringing reason to D&D is a bit like banging your head against a wall and hoping to knock it down, but you've got to give him credit for trying.
DonnyMost, that post is so sad and hilarious at the same time. And amen, here's to MadMax. I feel terrible about it. I think, in part, my dogmatic "sciency-ness" helped drive Max away. I hereby say I will post no more about global warming issues if MadMax would honor us by returning!
That was it? On page three he decided he'd had enough? I don't know that I blame him, really. He was posting about someone he knew personally and respected a great deal, intending to have an interesting converation about him and his ideas, perhaps, and it quickly became what he's endured countless times here... people questioning his faith. I hope he eventually changes his mind. Max is sorely missed.
