I'm going to stop commenting on the first issue. As for the second issue, what I meant was, some people don't believe in the Holy Spirit as part of the trinity. Muslims also believe in the Holy Spirit, just in case anyone was wondering. But he's just that - the Holy Spirit, nothing more, nothing less. 1 Say (O Muhammad): "He is Allah, (the) One." 2 "The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks." 3 "He begets not, nor was He begotten;" 4 "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." Through what reasoning did Christianity come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is God?
Sane, According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is God. Read Acts 5:3-4. Peter equates Ananias' lying to the Holy Spirit with lying to God. The Holy Spirit is God. Read 1 John 5:6-10. John equates the testimony of the Holy Spirit with the testimony of God. The Holy Spirit is God. (By the way, water symbolizes Jesus' baptism, and blood symbolizes his death.) Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 1:21, and compare the two quotes. The Bible is the Word of God. It is "God-breathed." Those who wrote the Bible were inspired by God as they wrote. The prophets "spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit is God. Read 1 Corinthians 2:4-5. Paul equates "the Spirit's power" with "God's power." The Holy Spirit is God. Read 1 Corinthians 2:11-12. No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God—the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. Read Romans 8:9-11. Notice that the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ." That makes sense if Jesus the Christ is God. Jesus the Christ is God. Read Matthew 28:18-20. Jesus says, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." "Name" is singular, but Jesus lists three persons. "Name" is singular because God is one Being. Jesus lists three persons because God is a Triune God. The Father is fully God. The Son is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God. Read Genesis 1:1. Notice the significance of "Elohim." The Trinity is the truth. Read John 14:15-17. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "he" and "him." The Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. God is the God of truth. The Holy Spirit is God. "Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth" (Psalm 31:5). God the Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit The Spirit The Spirit of God The Spirit of Christ The Spirit of truth The Spirit of life The Spirit of sonship Acts 5:3-4 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 1 John 5:6-10 And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Genesis 1:1 John 14:15-17 If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. —Jesus the Christ Romans 8:15-17 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
Acts 2:38-39 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." Ephesians 5:14 Everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." JESUS THE CHRIST "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." —Isaiah 53:5 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness." —Isaiah 42:6-7 THE LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. —John 1:1-13
I see lots of assumptions. If Jesus was God, and the Holy Spirit was God... Why didn't clearly state that the Holy Spirit is God? We're talking about a religion here, the future of the world, and eternal life. DOn't you think Jesus would clearly state that the Holy Spirit is God? You don't need to convince me of the Holy Spirit's purpose, I know it. You don't need to convince me that Christianity believes he's God. What I'm asking for is, where does it clearly state that the Holy Spirit is God, without the need to jump to conclusions? I must say, you are very entrenched in your beliefs. "Spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" does NOT mean that the Holy Spirit is God. It just means the Holy Spirit supported them in writing God's words.
1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” (Acts 5:1-4)
I need to amend something I wrote to Manny. I shouldn't have implied that Paul persuaded non-Christians to believe in Christ. It is God who saves. Without God's grace, a person cannot believe in Christ. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). I should have quoted 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 and Psalm 115:1. 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. Psalm 115:1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us but to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness.
It's very possible he meant that the Holy Spirit is God, but it's also just as possible that he meant that he lied to the Holy Spirit AND God, right?
A being/entity sent by God to support Jesus in preaching and teaching God's message. or "When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; "
I heard this really good story on new religions on NPR yesterday... and it really made me think. Here is an audio link to the story. Hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did. Note: The link is at the very top of the page... NPR story
ummmm...the Gospel? Jesus never studied the Gospel. Jesus was the subject of the Gospel and it was written well after he died.
Well, first of all, as I've said countless times, the Qura'an is not meant to be translated for this very reason. Second of all, I will look into it. If in fact the quote is reffering to the Gospels, then I'm assuming there's a difference between what the Muslims refer to as the Gospel and what Christians refer to as the Gospel. The fact that it was written later is not important, God "taught" him could simply mean he instilled this wisdom of those books into him beforehand. Don't forget that Jesus didn't die according to Islam.
I wrote something to No Worries that applies to our discussion about the Holy Spirit. Sane, We're not discussing whether the Holy Spirit is God, right? I'm arguing that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God. You have to evaluate the case in its totality. You can't isolate certain evidence from the overall case and then conclude it has no significance. I didn't post all the verses I could have, but just from the ones I did post, can you honestly say you don't think the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is God? Matthew 12:30-32 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." —Jesus the Christ The Bible states that Jesus the Christ is God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:18). If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit isn't God, then why is speaking against the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin, while speaking against Jesus is a forgivable sin? If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is not God, then why did Jesus say, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"? If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is not God, then why, in Genesis 1:1, is the word translated God—Elohim—plural, indicating more than two? If the Holy Spirit isn't God, then how can he know all the thoughts of God? The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God.
Cool link on the patchworking of religion; thanks. I found the statistic stating that most people quit these religious offshoots after two years to be surprising.
To non-Christians who are interested in hearing the gospel, On May 7, I bought a great book about faith. It's called Classic Sermons on Faith and Doubt, compiled by Warren W. Wiersbe. I highly recommend it to you. (I highly recommend it to my fellow Christians, too.) An excerpt from a sermon by Henry Drummmond (1851-1897): Christ's Treatment of Doubt I have spoken already of His strange partiality for the outsiders—for the scattered heretics up and down the country; of the care with which He loved to deal with their intellectual difficulties. Christ never failed to distinguish between doubt and unbelief. Doubt is "can't believe"; unbelief is "won't believe." Doubt is honesty; unbelief is obstinacy. Doubt is looking for light; unbelief is content with darkness. Loving darkness rather than light—that is what Christ attacked, and attacked unsparingly. But for the intellectual questioning of Thomas, and Phillip, and Nicodemus, and the many others who came to Him to have their great problems solved, He was respectful and generous and tolerant.
Matthew 12:30-32 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." —Jesus the Christ The Bible states that Jesus the Christ is God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:18). If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit isn't God, then why is speaking against the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin, while speaking against Jesus is a forgivable sin? If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is not God, then why did Jesus say, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"? If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is not God, then why, in Genesis 1:1, is the word translated God—Elohim—plural, indicating more than two? If the Holy Spirit isn't God, then how can he know all the thoughts of God? The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God. [/QUOTE] I'd say the case for Holy Spirit being God is weaker than the case for Jesus being God. The Holy Spirit knows what od thinks because that's his purpose, he's likea link from God to Jesus, that's my belief. Commiting a sin against him is unforgiveable - thats perfectly fine - but if you're telling me that committing a sin against Jesus (who is God in your case) is forgiveable, then I can't agree with that. For heaven's sake, we're talking about God here, what worse sin is there than speaking against him? IMO, speaking against Jesus, whether he's God or not, is unforgiveable. As I said, there are lots of assumptions in what you posted. I'm even a bit convinced that if no one told you that the Holy Spirit was God, and you read the Bible, you wouldn't make that connection. Sure, there may be instances where you say "Hmmmmm, that's curious...", but in the end, I think that a person would conclude that it's not true from what's written. The Holy Spirit is God's gift to Jesus. I don't like to make comparisons, but if you worked for a comapny, and your job was to save this company, the Holy Spirit would be the super experienced secretary personally given to you directly from the owner/manager of the company. That's why the secretary would know all the boss' thoughts, that's why you would respect him/her, that's why he's essential to this "project". He probably has great power in the company, being personally picked by the boss, but not as much power as the boss. So far, the most powerful quote to support you argument has been the one that Traj presented, but as I said, it can be interpreted both ways and both ways are equally feasible.
Sane, You're arguing that the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is God. I'm arguing that it does. We're debating whether the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is God. We're not debating whether the Bible is the truth. Question: Does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit is God? Facts 1. The Bible states that Jesus is God. 2. The Bible states that speaking a word against Jesus is forgivable. 3. The Bible states that speaking against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. If you're going to argue that the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is God, then you have to make your argument based on the Bible, regardless of what your beliefs are and what your opinions are, and regardless of whether you agree that the Bible is the truth. You have to accept as fact what the Bible states as fact. Your "link" theory is not supported by the Bible. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:18). Jesus is God. "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:15-17). Can you explain how the passage above relates to your "link" theory? "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matthew 12:30-32). If you're going to argue that the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is God, then you have to make your argument based on the Bible. You have to accept as fact what the Bible states as fact. Try to set aside your beliefs and opinions. For the purposes of our discussion, accept that the Bible is the truth. Examine the verses I gave you and evaluate my argument by evaluating the evidence in its totality. I can give you more verses if necessary. If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is not God, then why did Jesus say, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"? If the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is not God, then why, in Genesis 1:1, is the word translated God—Elohim—plural, indicating more than two?
Sorry to interrupt the Bible study, but I'm really curious. Kate: What's your best guess as to how Jesus would have reacted to the Iraq war? Not looking to derail, so feel free to respond in another thread. But I'm really interested in hearing from religious people on the number one issue of the day.
I understand that last point. But nevertheless, Islam believes he moved on. The Gospels...in any form...are nothing but a recounting of his life.
I've been thinking about this BJ...and I have no idea other than that he would lament the hate...the perversions of the heart on all sides...that this is the consequence of a broken humanity that puts themselves above all...that chooses to hate. Jesus was incredibly radical....incredibly radical largely because of his message of love in the face of hate. He said, "you're heard it said, 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' I'll tell you something else. Love your enemies. Pray for them." This is a guy who is dying on a cross asking for his persecutors' forgiveness before the Father. I don't know that love is possible without some form of discipline...or judgment...I don't know that it would be a response of "love" to ignore the Holocaust, for example. To sit on your hands and say, "we're not to take up arms." God, as He's revealed in the Bible, is pretty serious about this justice thing. And Jesus certainly talks about God's judgment over and over again. He talks more of God's judgment than God's grace, actually. But he was about transforming people...individually...so that their responses would be more in line with God....with forgiveness. So we have this situation. And I come back to a sense of confusion...I don't have clarity on what Jesus would say about this. But I think he'd look at the fruits of the thing and say, "wow...you guys really have it figured out don't you? more death...more destruction...more hate. yeah...you guys are doing a bang-up job with this thing. good job."
