John Calvin on the power of the Holy Spirit to let Christians know that the Bible is the Word of God: "Therefore, illuminated by his power, we believe neither by our own nor by anyone else's judgment that Scripture is from God; but above human judgment we affirm with utter certainty (just as we were gazing upon the majesty of God himself) that it has flowed to us from the very mouth of God by the ministry of men." —Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin; (quoted in The Holy Spirit, by Billy Graham)
It doesn't matter really what John Calvin says, you are a human being and prone to mistakes, just like everyone from every other religion in the world. Human beings make mistakes, that's a fact. Human beings are sinners, that's a belief of mine and yours.
"I AM WHO I AM." This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you." —Exodus 3:14 You shall have no other gods before me. —Exodus 20:3
Sane, Yes, we're all sinners and we're all fallible. And you can't know whether I'm telling the truth when I claim that the Holy Spirit lets me know that the Christian faith is the truth. There's something missing in your reasoning, though. You're arguing that, because we're all sinful and fallible, there's no way a person can be certain that the Christian faith is the truth. A Christian is not himself/herself the source for his/her knowledge that the Christian faith is the truth. The source of a Christian's knowledge that the Christian faith is the truth is God the Holy Spirit. He—the Holy Spirit—lets a Christian know that the Christian faith is the truth in a supernatural way. "Therefore, illuminated by his power, we believe neither by our own nor by anyone else's judgment that Scripture is from God; but above human judgment we affirm with utter certainty (just as we were gazing upon the majesty of God himself) that it has flowed to us from the very mouth of God by the ministry of men." —John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1). "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:15-17). —Jesus the Christ
It's not missing. It was meant to be left out. If you made a mistake about Christianity in the first place (like any human is prone to do), then the Holy Spirit doesn't exist. That's why you can't use tha argument of the Holy Spirit. Because if your choice of Christianity was wrong, then there is no Holy Spirit. When do you think the Holy Spirit told you the truth?
Sane, I am a sinful and fallible being. God is a sinless and infallible Being. "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:5-6). "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1). "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:15-17). —Jesus the Christ
Sane, I didn't have any faith that God existed. I didn't have any faith that the Word of God was the truth. I asked God for faith. I asked God for faith many times over many years. Finally, God answered my prayer. God gave me faith. Matthew 14:25-31 During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear. But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water." "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" Psalm 116:1-9 I love the LORD, for he heard my voice; he heard my cry for mercy. Because he turned his ear to me, I will call on him as long as I live. The cords of death entangled me, the anguish of the grave came upon me; I was overcome by trouble and sorrow. Then I called on the name of the LORD: "O LORD, save me!" The LORD is gracious and righteous; our God is full of compassion. The LORD protects the simplehearted; when I was in great need, he saved me. Be at rest once more, O my soul, for the LORD has been good to you. For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before the LORD in the land of the living.
So it's possible that you were wrong in interpreting the answer to your prayers? If Christianity wasn't the right faith, what did you expect to happen? Did you expect to recieve an e-mail with the details enclosed? Were you going to repeat the same prayer for different religions till you got the right answer? Since you are human, you may have been wrong about the response to your prayers and hence would be wrong abotu the existence of The Holy Spirit, which eliminates the "God is sinless and infallible" argument" - because if the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, then there is no sinless and infallible being that lets you know Christianity is the truth.
I'll answer that question if you want. But that has nothing to do with what I asked. But that's not what we're discussing. The fact remains that if Christianity doesn't "exist", then the Holy Spirit doesn't either. Some people believe in Christianity but not the Holy Spirit, so even THEN it's debateable. This isn't true for anyone. Especially those who, for example, don't believe in a super superior being. They could be wrong, meaning everythign they believe in is wrong as well. Everyone should be open to this possibility. Unless you are better than human, then you are prone to making mistakes. Are you arguing with a fact? Every single human being on earth agrees that the normal human being is prone to mistakes. Now, some will say that Jesus was sinless, but all that proves is that there is a divine source - it doesn't necessarily mean that he's God. So do we agree that human beings make mistakes?
all humans make mistakes..... but the truth that is in a Christian was not put there by a human but revealed by God. Saying that the truth we beleive is infallible is not in anyway a statement of our infallibility -- in fact any true Christian will admit that he is a sinner and nothing on his own and will admit that he is no better then anyone else -- just privileged to have accepted a free invtiation to eternity. Trying to explain the inexplicable is impossible. As Christians all we can do is try to share the pieces of God that have been revealed to us and the knowledge that there is a bigger God that we don't completely understand -- but we understand enough to know he is there.
The truth that is in a Christian? If you're a Christian, then that means you have faith in Christianity already, meaning you already believe in the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about right before you were a Christian. Maybe you made a mistake picking Christianity, hence negating the Holy Spirit's "message". What I'm getting from you and KB is that you were born into Christianity, and did not know religion unless it included the Holy Spirit. The very definition of blind faith.
Sane, I've already acknowledged that I'm a sinful and fallible human being. I sin. I make mistakes. God is holy. God is infallible. He doesn't sin. He doesn't make mistakes. The Father is fully God and does not make mistakes. The Son is fully God and does not make mistakes. The Holy Spirit is fully God and does not make mistakes. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have always existed. God is one Being. God is an eternal Being. I encourage you to read Calvin's words again. He correctly states that "we believe neither by our own nor by anyone else's judgment that Scripture is from God." He correctly states that we are "illuminated" by the power of the Holy Spirit. I also encourage you to read Jesus' words again. Regarding the Holy Spirit, Jesus said to his disciples, "The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." He told them that the Holy Spirit—the Spirit of truth—would be with them forever. My faith that Christianity is the truth is not based on my own judgment. I know that Christianity is the truth because the Holy Spirit—the Spirit of truth—lets me know that it is. The faith that I had before was based on my own judgment. It's not surprising that I lost that faith. Besides, that faith was not 100% faith. It could not have been described the way faith is described in Hebrews 11:1. "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1). Today, I know that the Christian faith is the truth. My faith is 100% faith, because I am "illuminated" by the power of the Holy Spirit. I am sure of what I hope for and certain of what I do not see.
Three times you answered with the same thing when I told you it's not what I'm asking for.. Let's say 10 years ago, you started having faith in Christianity. Since then, the Holy Spirit has illuminated you, fine, I understand the reasoning behind that. The Holy Spirit lets you know that Christianity is the truth. I understand this. I take this point, understand it, and now we can put it away out of this conversation. Now, you've had faith for 10 years. Let's go to the year before that, when you didn't have faith in Christianity, and since you didn't seek God with all your heart, then the Holy Spirit didn't let you know that Christianity is the truth. So basically, the sequence has to be in a way that you have faith in Christianity, then the Holy Spirit will tell you the truth. I understand that, and we don't need to repeat that. So going back to 11 years ago, when you didn't have faith. You picked a religion based on what you, the human being who didn't have faith in Christianity yet and hence no access to the Holy Spirit, thought was closest to the truth. So this decision of which religion is closest to the truth was your human decision, and this is a point where I'm saying you could have made a mistake. It's only after this point that you claim that the Holy Spirit "illuminates" you. So we are down to 2 things: You believed in Christianity, became faithful, and then the Holy Spirit told you you're right. But you had already entered this religion with your decision, and already had faith in it when the Holy Spirit came to re-affirm your beliefs. If this is how it works for everyone, then you are asking everyone to blindly step into Christianity, and promise them that the Holy Spirit will re-assure them. If it doesn't happy, you will argue that they did not seek the Lord with all their heart. They will keep seeking and keep seeking and they will seek to the point where the Holy Spirit comes to them. If you want to believe something bad enough, then you will believe in it eventually. There is no possibility left open for "Hmm. Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn't exist.". The 2 options are that he exists or you're not looking hard enough. But how could these be your only 2 options? You're not sure about Christianity yet, so there actually ARE other possibilities. Are you getting what I'm saying? It's all about the sequence. If you're still not getting what I'm saying, I'm afraid I can't exlpain it any better.
I understand what you are saying. God is constantly calling all of us. I was not seeking, I was not in a church when I felt God calling. It is hard to explain --- but I had an "awakening" experience when I didn't even know I was asleep.
Sane, I understand what you're saying. You discount my testimony because I wanted to believe that the Christian faith was the truth. The case for Christianity stands on its own, though. There are many reasons to believe that the Christian faith is the truth. Ultimately, though, it's a matter of faith. Are you willing to take a step of faith? I care about you. That's why I'm sharing the gospel with you. It's good news, Sane. It's great news. I'll stop if you want me to. I was baptized on June 16, 1985. I was 13 years old at the time. (A person is baptized after he/she becomes a Christian.) I had faith that Christianity was the truth, but I didn't know that it was the truth. I did not have 100% faith. I had a faith that was based on my own judgment. It's not surprising that I eventually lost that faith. I lost my faith no later than March of 1994. I had already stopped going to church before then. By March of 2002, I had regained my faith, but it was still a faith based on my own judgment. I believed that the Christian faith was the truth, but I wasn't certain that it was. Even though I had faith again, I almost never went to church. That tells you what kind of faith I had. From March of 1994 to February of 2004, I don't think I went to church more than ten times. By March of 2004, my faith had grown pretty strong, even though I hadn't been attending church. I don't remember how much I had been reading and/or studying the Bible. I do know that, from March of 1994 to April of 2004, I asked God many times to let me know that he existed and that the Christian faith was the truth. I wanted to have the kind of faith that's described in Hebrews 11:1. On March 9, 2004, I started the Three Days thread. On March 14, 2004, I went to church for the first time in a very long time. My eyes welled up with tears while I was singing a hymn. I didn't go to church again until April 9. On April 2, 2004, I started this thread—Christianity and Christ's Death. On April 9, 2004, I went to a Good Friday church service. We had to get in line to take Communion that night. I took Communion and returned to my seat. Other people were still taking Communion. I don't remember what I was thinking exactly, but at some point my eyes welled up with tears. Then I just started sobbing. After I few minutes, I stopped. The Holy Spirit had let me know that the Christian faith is the truth. I know that the Trinity is the truth. I know that Christ rose from the dead. I know that Jesus the Christ is God. I know that I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I know that angels and demons are real. I know that Christ will return someday. I know that I have eternal life. I am sure of what I hope for and certain of what I do not see. I asked God to give me faith many times over many years. He finally answered my prayer. He gave me faith. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). I have true joy and peace in my heart. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us" (Romans 5:1-5). I am the lowliest of sinners. I deserve to go to hell. It is by God's grace that I am saved. "Because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved" (Ephesians 2:4-5). "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23-24). "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). I cannot begin to comprehend how much God loves me. "The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and the love that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 1:14). "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:7-8). In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. —John 1:1-13
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:15-17). —Jesus the Christ "Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come" (2 Corinthians 5:5). "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us" (1 Corinthians 2:12). Matthew 28:18-19 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:29-33 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." Acts 2:38-39 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
