Christianity and Christ's Death

The Qura'an proves its credibility by stating things that only God knew at that time, and which became scientifically proven over time. Once that credibility is established, to me everything else falls into place.

 

Sane --

1. Islam claims Jesus lived a sinless life as well.

2. Yes..I totally get what you're saying. But we don't see entirely different contradictions of Jesus' stories from gospel to gospel. And the spirit of the person of Jesus isn't lost in the discrepancies we do see. They are minor details, at best.

 

brother, the same could be said of the Bible. just do some searching on the internet for Biblical prophecy. there is stuff in the Bible that indicates the world is a globe long before that concept was understood. and on and on.

 

This reminds me of this commercial they're running here about this show...

The father says something like "who knowswhy the sky is blue, why birds sing, etc..."

The kid very calmly says "Well, actually, there are very simple explanations to all those things Dad."

I think those things are wonderful, even miraculous. After all, they were created by God (regardless of the definition of God ). But there are bigger things in life. For most of us at least.

 

Does it suggest it or does it clearly state it?

I wouldn't be surprised. Jesus' teachings are considered God's message in Islam. But I'm 100% sure Islam offers way more of this evidence, which brings us back to the point of which offers mroe vidence.

 

just being objective....

on the issue of Jesus, alone...

a book that includes purported eyewitness testimony...that is backed up by the lives of the men who wrote it...who go on to lose their own lives in support of what they claim they saw....

or

a book that says, "no one else heard it...but God told me that everything you guys think you saw and understood 300 years ago is wrong."

 

Is too!

Say your best comes up to you and says "Last night, you're not going to believe this but when I was out walking around the lake I might the spirit move me and I walked on water." Do you either

i) believe him/her and rejoice in his/her religious experience

or

ii) do an on the spot intervention and take him to the near mental hospital

Contrast that if your friend came up to you and says "Last night, my damn neighbor's dog woke me up with its barking at 2 am." If your friend usually tells the truth and has a neighbor with a dog, you will likely believe him without question.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. If anybody walks on water, I want the video and as many collabrating witnesses as possible, especially one without a relationship with water walker. If not, I am going to treat it like a UFO sighting, i.e. with great skepticism.

 

We are not strangers Max, so I'll say this directly, and hope you take it for what it's worth.... It's my opinion that the Bible has been "touched up".... Although No Worries hasn't cited specifically that this was done, he HAS cited that there is tons and tons of room for this to happen, and no one knows if it did. Read back on his posts to know what I'm talking about. In fact, he used the word tampering, which is too strong maybe, but he clearly showed that the bible is not consistent, and there was at least some change.

Now, your belief is that what I'm saying is not true, and I respect that 100%. So let's leave it at that and go on to the Koran..

The Koran, by definition, is the book the Muslims believe was dictated to Muhammad PBUH for the sake of Islam. This leaves little or no room for "tampering" (for lack of a better word).

You may not believe this. I'd like to hear what you DO think the Qura'an is exactly. I'd like you to keep in mind that Muhammad was an uneducated man, a slave to his high-status family, the Qurayshis. Friends, enemies, and by-standers all agree that he was uneducated. He lived in a cave and did nothing but serve his family. No one taught him anything, and if he wanted to learn by himself, he couldn't because he didn't know how to read. I think we can consider it rock-solid that Muhammad was uneducated, because many many people had more than enough of a motive to say otherwise. One version was written and one version was distributed. The version that Muhammad handed out is identical to the one that (as you put it) is sitting in my car right now.

Regardless.... What does it matter how the book was recieved if it can establish its credibility as words that only God could dictate?

Muhammad performed miracles as well. Who was the source of these miracles? What is Muhammad to Christianity, why was he able to perform miracles?

 

I'm looking for anything that I may have missed in making my decision. I am more than willing to go out there and be proven wrong, because if I'm wrong, I want to know. That's what faith means. If you have faith in something, then you are secure with it, you don't worry about going another way anymore, unless the "other" way is the one you overlooked.

While we're on this subject, your definition of Christianity is very "black & white". No Worries is a Christian. He may not be a catholic or whatever, but he claims to be a Christian, and I think, it's ultimately between him and God, and not for anyone else to decide. You told me that Christianity is believeing that Jesus is God, and part of the trinity. But unitarians don't believe that, and neither does No Worries, yet they are all Christians. So I don't think that NOT believing Jesus is God means you're not Christian, it just means you're a different kind, from a different sect.

 

The nature of the claim doesn't make change the nature of the assertion, itself. Again...this is an eyewitness report. Now I can choose to say, "I don't believe your testimony." But the witness is reporting it as a statement of fact.

Treat it with skepticism...please do. You should. But don't mire yourself in skepticism so as to ignore the evidence that these claims, in total, are true. Please don't make me recount again all the indicias of solid evidence that these guys saw something that changed them forever...and turned average fishermen into people who changed the course of history.

 

1. I understand you believe the Bible was touched up. To what degree, Sane? To a point where the entire theology changed? If so, prove it. Not to me, but to yourself. Go out and find it. Seriously. Because if you're wrong, you're missing the boat big time. I hear people level empty charges like this all the time. "The Bible is all made up. It's all fake. Jesus was really married, had 5 kids and was a shoe salesman in Jerusalem." But it all rings hollow because no one ever backs that stuff up with any merit. Ever. Even on websites like www.jesuswasaputz.com

2. I need more time with the Koran to figure it out. But suffice it to say that the very nature of its compilation...and then it's self-serving use to go out and "kick ass for Allah"...to conquer...falls short of the credibility of a book written by men who find themselves looking like idiots in their own writing...who go to their own deaths for something they know they made up? People go to their deaths when they're deceived...when they believe David Koresh really is the guy. But they don't do that for a lie....for a story they know they made up. And these guys suffered big time for that.

 

I am very willing to believe with what God has enlightened me.

You might be outraged/annoyed/discomforted by my cherry picking of what I belief from the orthodox Christian faith. The founding church fathers did the same thing when chosing 27 books as inspired, when building their cannon, while leaving 200 books off the list. Without any doubt, you too cherry pick what you believe from the Bible; it is just that you refuse to see it that way via some very twisted logic. I submit that you view scripture through a lense of set Christian theology. Those scriptures that do not agree with the theology require inspirational interpretation to bend to the theology's will.

As example, Jesus in Mark clearly states that following the ten commandents will lead to eternal life. This Mark pericope disagrees wildly from orthodox Christian theology and thus requires creative back flips to to find an acceptable interpretation, since Jesus in Mark could not have meant the obvious and erred so dramatically from the righteous path of Christian theology.

 

FYI just for the record, Jesus the Jew commited sins from the Jewish perspective. He broke the Sabbath on numerous occasions. Thus, his Jewish contemporaries would not see him as sinless (and actually would want to inflict some very severe punnishments for these infractions). I eagarly await the tautology from the true believers that since Jesus was God he could break the Sabbath without sinning.

 

or could it be you're misinterpreting Christ's meaning here? he does say that the way to eternal life is to follow the law fully...Christians believe that big time...I sure do. If i lead a sinless life, than I am worthy of heaven...but the point is, no one does it. thereby showing the need for a savior. which leads us right back to orthodox Christian theology.

 

because they didn't understand the Sabbath, No Worries.

serioiusly...have you read these stories? they called him a sinner for healing a man on the sabbath. Jesus pointed out that God never stops working....so yes...from their flawed perspective, healing a man on the sabbath was a sin. But they're not the ultimate arbitrers of what is or is not sinful.

 

1. I can't convince you MadMax. I don't know the things No Worries knows about where the bible circulated, through whom it went, who could've touched it up, on exactly what date what happened. The proof I have only applies to me, and I won't try to prove it by using scripture that I have faith in and you don't (the Koran) because it's not common ground. I don't know to what degree it was touched, but the Qura'an says that Jesus prophesized (sp?) the Qura'an and "The Praised One", i.e., Muhammad PBUH. It also says that Jesus did not claim to be God, and that those who believe that Jesus is God are misguided. If Jesus infact claimed to be God, then he sinned (according to Islam). Here's what I do believe though: Jesus' mission was to spread the Lord's message, he was born of the Virgin Mary, "the Jews" attempted to crucify him, he did not die on the cross and will return at some point in the future to guide us all. I also believe that Jesus' miraculous life was accomplished through a divine source.

2. The Koran is misunderstood. Even by Muslims, wouldn't you believe it? A friend has an addiction to masturbation (according to him) but when I ask him why he's growing his nappy-a$$ beard, he says it's for Islam. Some people don't have their priorities straight. I'm not boasting that I've figured it all out - but I feel I'm better off than lots of "religious" Muslims. Muslims are NOT allowed to force Islam on others, it is against the Islamic law. Yes, it has been done, but that doesn't make it right. There is no conquering in Islam. There is only spreading the message. I am guaranteeing you these things because I have looked into it very carefully. I am sinning if I force someone to convert to Islam. Everyone thinks that Muslims are trying to convert the whole world - that's bull. If anyone tries to convert anyone else, we consider it a favor. A guy thinks he knows the truth, he tries to share it with someone. If I truly give a damn about my friend, and I think I know the answers, then I will share the mwith him - it's a favor.


I don't know what went wrong, I wasn't there. But I believe something went wrong, and we'll only find out later when Jesus comes back what happened, and what's true.

 

brother, on that we can agree. and you should know, i absolutely see you as my brother before God, our differences notwithstanding.

with Christianity...i view myself as a beggar. i've found a place to get bread...the bread is plentiful and it's good. it's satisfying. now i could point you to a bunch of other bread shops in town, but i don't know much about the bread there...i don't know how generous the store owner is...i don't know the quality of the bread...but i can tell you my life is infinitely richer because of the store i frequent; the store i spend my life in. so that's why i invite people in...because i remember what it was to be hungry...and know the bread i eat is amazing.