John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance—baptism that was preceded or accompanied by repentance. Mark 1:4-5 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. John the Baptist was the messenger sent by God to prepare the way for the Lord. Jesus was—and is—the Lord. Mark 1:1-3 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way"—"a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.' " Did John the Baptist see Jesus as a sinner? Mark 1:6-8 John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." If you examine verses 1-3 and 6-8, it's not difficult to see that John the Baptist knew that he was the messenger who was preparing the way for the Lord, and that Jesus was the Lord for whom he was preparing the way. Mark 1:9-11 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." The people mentioned in Mark 1:5 confessed their sins when they were baptized. "The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him [John the Baptist]. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River" (Mark 1:5). Now examine Mark's account of Jesus' baptism. He points to all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father speaks to the Son. God the Son is baptized. God the Holy Spirit descends on God the Son. Does that sound like the baptism of a sinner? No. That sounds like the baptism of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. John the Baptist baptized many people. They all confessed their sins when they were baptized. John the Baptist identified one person as "more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. " He identified that person as one who would "baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Does that person sound like a sinner? No. That person was Jesus. If you examine Mark 1:1-11, it's clear that everyone who was baptized was a sinner, except for Jesus. It's clear that John the Baptist was the messenger who prepared the way for the Lord. It's clear that the Lord was Jesus Christ. The Lord is God. God did not need to be told what to do with his life. God is not a sinner. Acts 19:1-5 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
My conclusions are straightforward and come directly from the Gospel of Mark. The fact is that not everything written in the Bible is in total agreement. The Gospel of Mark says that Jesus was not born divine, but becomes so at his death. The other three Gospels have Jesus divine from birth. This is a huge difference which can not be reconciled, short of saying that Jesus's divinity is not important to the Christian faith.
Argue your case using verses from Mark. What's the very first verse in Mark 1? "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1). Mark 1:1-3 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way"—"a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.' " Who is "the Lord" in verse 3? The Lord is Jesus Christ. Mark 1:9-11 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." The people mentioned in Mark 1:5 confessed their sins when they were baptized. "The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him [John the Baptist]. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River" (Mark 1:5). Now examine Mark's account of Jesus' baptism. He points to all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father speaks to the Son. God the Son is baptized. God the Holy Spirit descends on God the Son. Does that sound like the baptism of a sinner? No. That sounds like the baptism of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. John the Baptist baptized many people. They all confessed their sins when they were baptized. John the Baptist identified one person as "more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. " He identified that person as one who would "baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Does that person sound like a sinner? No. That person was God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Nice try. This phrase "the Son of God" in Mark 1:1 is not in all of the earlier extant versions of Mark and is likely an interpolation by a later scribe. I do not know if it is the case in this point but "Jesus Christ" is also a likely redaction from "Jesus". IIRC between 250 CE and 350 CE a pass was made through the canonical NT and instances of "Jesus" and "Christ" were changed to "Jesus Christ".
If you examine Mark 1:1-11, it's clear that everyone who was baptized was a sinner, except for Jesus. It is not clear at all. The promised Messiah was not necessarily divine, just someone who was "annointed" by God to deliver his chosen people. Was David, Moses, or Abraham divine? [Edit is so worth it.]
The careful reader would noticed that you replied with a 1000 word or so (I did not count it) response to three straightforward versus, explaining how these versus have some deep, hidden meaning that is not obvious. The straightforward interpretation: A man approached Jesus and asked him about eternal life. Jesus takes issue with being addressed as "godly" (heretical) and then tells the man to obey the 10 commandents (heretical). I suspect that if a person went to a European public square 500 years ago and made these two statements (1. "Jesus is not divine" and 2. "Jesus said salvation is gained by solely obeying the 10 commandents") that said person would proceed to live a very short and extremely painful life. What isn't in Mark is amazing if you think about it. A man asked Jesus point blank The Question: How does one going about being saved and getting eternal life? This would have been the perfect oportunity for Jesus to give definitively The Answer. Instead Mark provides us with the decidely wrong answer. This should stop and give you pause.
Use verses from Mark to show that Jesus was a sinner. Use verses from Mark to show that Jesus was not God when he was baptized. Use verses from Mark to show that Jesus was not God when he was born. Who is "the Lord" in Mark 1:3? Does Mark's account of Jesus' baptism lead you to believe that Jesus was a sinner? Mark points to all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father speaks to the Son. God the Son is baptized. God the Holy Spirit descends on God the Son. Does John the Baptist's description of Jesus lead you to believe that Jesus was a sinner? What did John the Baptist mean when he said that one "more powerful than I" would baptize with the Holy Spirit?
Use verses from Mark to show that Jesus was a sinner. Use verses from Mark to show that Jesus was not God when he was baptized. Mark 1: 4-5, 9-11. Mark says people went down to the river to repent/confess their sins and get baptised. Mark says Jesus went down to the river and got baptised. Connecting the dots, we can assume that Jesus reprented his sins before his baptism, just like everyone else. We can make this assumption based on the fact that if Jesus knew he was sinless he would not need to be baptised. To say that this is not the case requires an involved argument that is based on Jesus's divinity, which was not a requirement for the OT prophesied Messiah. Use verses from Mark to show that Jesus was not God when he was born. Mark 10:17-19 I beat this with a stick in a recent post.
I wanted to give you a chance to argue your case fully. Thanks for answering my first two questions. You don't have anything to add to what you've written regarding my third question. Can you answer the rest of my questions? Who is "the Lord" in Mark 1:3? Does Mark's account of Jesus' baptism lead you to believe that Jesus was a sinner? Mark points to all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father speaks to the Son. God the Son is baptized. God the Holy Spirit descends on God the Son. Does John the Baptist's description of Jesus lead you to believe that Jesus was a sinner? What did John the Baptist mean when he said that one "more powerful than I" would baptize with the Holy Spirit?
Sane, The Father is fully God. The Son is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God. God is one Being. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit do different things. That does not mean that any one of them is inferior to the others in nature. God the Son chose to be the Redeemer. He chose to humble himself by setting aside his divine prerogatives and by entering into human flesh as one subject to the Father. The Father was positionally greater because the Son voluntarily left his position of glory for a time, but that doesn't mean that God the Son was—or is—inferior in nature to God the Father. Christ bore our sins on the cross. He endured the retributive judgment due to us. Don't underestimate the significance of that. He suffered more than we can imagine. Psalm 22 is a psalm of David. It's the anguished prayer of a person who is being attacked by enemies and who is enduring extreme suffering. No other Psalm is quoted more frequently in the New Testament than Psalm 22. The psalms were not numbered in Jesus' time. The common Jewish way of designating an entire psalm was to refer to the opening lines. Jesus knew all of Psalm 22. "For he [the LORD] has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help" (Psalm 22:24). I think it's understandable that Jesus would have thought of Psalm 22 and quoted Psalm 22:1 while he was enduring extreme suffering on the cross.
Does John the Baptist's description of Jesus lead you to believe that Jesus was a sinner? Nothing in John the Baptist's description of Jesus would indicate that Jesus was not a sinner. As I mentioned before, the prophesied Messiah was not expected to be divine. Pious yes. Divine no. What did John the Baptist mean when he said that one "more powerful than I" would baptize with the Holy Spirit? "more powerful than I" does not naturally mean "without sin" or "divine". Your entire argument on what Mark meant hinges on the prejudiced belief that Jesus was divine. If the only Gospel that was handed down to us was Mark, we would not be having this discussion. Mark points to all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is a circular argument: Since Mark mentions the Holy Trinity, Mark believed Jesus was divine (and part of the Holy Trinity). Can you not see the circular logic in this?
Hey KB - you keep hitting on this point. I saw the quote earlier; I don't think it's as solid as you think. Clearing the way for the Lord may not mean that He's physically coming, it could mean preparing for His upcoming actions. Mark 1:1-3 isn't the slam dunk you're making it out to be.
I agree that the coming of the Lord isn't always a physical thing in the Scriptures. You see that a lot in the Minor Prophets, and also some in passages like Matthew 24. But the key to understanding what's under consideration is the context. When you keep everything in context, whose actions are described after John prepares the way? Most people would conclude that it was Jesus -- the natural way to understand the words of the passage. John comes along to prepare the way for the Lord, and then everything afterward talks about Jesus. While it might not be a "slam dunk," the weight of the evidence points to "the Lord" being "Jesus Christ, the Son of God." After all, the very first verse of the book sets the context for all that follows. This book is about "the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
This book is about "the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." WRT the apocryphal phrase "Son of God" http://www.stjohnadulted.org/mark1.htm (pro-bible source) Son of God * Not synonymous with a claim of divinity in the early days of Christianity * Meant someone who was obedient to God * As a son is obedient to his father, so the righteous man is obedient to God * In Hebrew Bible could mean all of Israel, the king, or any righteous man (Hosea 11:1, Psalm 2:7, Wisdom of Solomon 2:18)
Again, I don't think it's the obvious conclusion to say this (that's my contribution here - I'm not saying you can't say that... I'm saying that the argument against it is just as strong.). If an *agent* of God (and not God Himself) appears after one prepares the way for God, I think that makes perfect sense when reading the passage.
What did John the Baptist mean when he said that the person more powerful than he would baptize with the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to baptize with the Holy Spirit?
Rocket104, Mark actually quotes Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3. Isaiah was written about 700 years before Christ was born. Malachi was written about 400 years before Christ was born. Who is "the messenger of the covenant" in Malachi 3:1? "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. —Malachi 3:1 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God." —Isaiah 40:3 "The messenger of the covenant" is God—the Lord. John the Baptist prepared the way for the messenger of the covenant—the Lord. In Isaiah 42:6, God says that he will make the Messiah to be "a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles." The Messiah is the messenger of the covenant. The messenger of the covenant is God. Jesus was the messenger of the covenant. Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus was God. Jesus was the Lord. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Lord. THE NEW COVENANT "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." —Jeremiah 31:31 "I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles." —Isaiah 42:6 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. —Malachi 3:1 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." —Hebrews 9:15 JESUS THE CHRIST "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." —Isaiah 53:5 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." —Isaiah 53:6 "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." —Isaiah 53:11 Isaiah 53:10 states that "it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer," and that "the LORD makes his life a guilt offering." Verse 11 states that the Messiah "will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." Verse 12 states that "he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness." —Isaiah 42:6-7 THE LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. —John 1:1-13
What did John the Baptist mean when he said that the person more powerful than he would baptize with the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to baptize with the Holy Spirit? Metaphor.
Isn't it possible also to have an open mind, and realize that the world exists as it always will without a superior being above. People will die, and life will always go on unless someone presses the big red button and the rest of the world press their big red buttons.
If that's all Jesus meant when he claimed to be the Son of God, then why would the Jewish leaders find him worhty of death? I'll quote from the Gospel of Mark, since you seem to want to limit things to it. 60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” 61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” 63 And the high priest tore his garments and said, “What further witnesses do we need? 64 You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?” And they all condemned him as deserving death. (Mark 14:60-64)
