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Christianity and Christ's Death

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by KateBeckinsale7, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. KateBeckinsale7

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    Mark 15:33-36

    At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

    When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah."

    One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to take him down," he said.


    Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1. He was not asking a question of surprise. He fully understood that he was paying the price for our sins. "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).


    Psalm 22:1

    My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?


    Mark 15:33-36

    At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


    Romans 5:8

    Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
     
    #221 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 17, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2004
  2. Sane

    Sane Member

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    What possible reason would there be for him to quote the Psalms?

    To be honest, that reasons sounds curiously... convenient.


    In your previous post you said that God the Son was adressing God the Father.


    The quote says "Eloi Eloi".... It's quite curious for someone to call out God the Father.... I would say that calling that out implies that God the Father has some power over Jesus, but how could that be when the trinity says that God is in 3 EQUAL forms?
     
  3. KateBeckinsale7

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    Sane,

    Christ bore our sins on the cross. He endured the retributive judgment due to us. It's not difficult for a Christian to see why he would cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

    No psalm is quoted more frequently in the New Testament than Psalm 22.


    Psalm 22:1

    My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?


    Psalm 22:15-18

    My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.

    Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

    I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.

    They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
     
    #223 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 17, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2004
  4. KateBeckinsale7

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    Sane,

    God is one Being who exists eternally as three equal persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    The Father is fully God. The Son is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God.

    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit do different things. That does not mean that any one of them is inferior to the others in nature.

    "Think of it this way: in eternity past the Father, Son and Spirit voluntarily and freely chose the roles they would take in bringing about the redemption of God's people. This is what is called "The Eternal Covenant of Redemption. The Father chose to be the font and source of the entirety of the work. The Son chose to be the Redeemer and to enter into human flesh as one subject to the Father; and the Spirit chose to be the Sanctifier of the church, the indwelling Testifier of Jesus Christ. Each took different roles of necessity—they could not all take the same roles and do different things." —The Forgotten Trinity, James R. White
     
    #224 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 17, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2004
  5. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Not.
     
  6. KateBeckinsale7

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    The Christian faith is the truth.
     
    #226 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 18, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2004
  7. KateBeckinsale7

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    Rocket104 and Sane (and anyone else out there),

    I hope that you don't allow No Worries to mislead you about the Bible. No Worries would have you believe that Mark implies that Jesus was a sinner—and that he wasn't God—because he was baptized. No Worries would have you believe that, according to Mark, Jesus didn't know what he was supposed to do with his life until he was baptized. I'll try to show you why you shouldn't believe those things.


    No Worries,

    What leads you to conclude that, according to Mark, Jesus didn't know what he was supposed to do with his life until he was baptized? What leads you to think that Mark implies that Jesus was a sinner—and that he wasn't God— because he was baptized?

    Baptism does not atone for sin. Christ's death atoned for our sins. Baptism is an ordinance (or sacrament). An ordinance is an outward and visible symbolic rite commanded by God to be practiced by the church that sets forth a central truth of the Christian faith.

    "Christian baptism, which has the form of a ceremonial washing (like John's pre-Christian) baptism, is a sign from God that signifies inward cleansing and remission of sins, Spirit-wrought regeneration and new life, and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit as God's seal testifying and guaranteeing that one will be kept safe in Christ forever. . . . The outward sign does not automatically or magically convey the inward blessings it signifies, and the candidates' professions of faith are not always genuine. Peter had to tell the newly baptized Simon Magus that he was still unrenewed in heart (Acts 8:13-24)." —Concise Theology, J. I. Packer


    Jesus' baptism was an example for Christians to follow, but the meaning of Jesus' baptism was entirely different from the significance of Christian baptism. He was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15). The baptism of Jesus indicated that he was consecrated to God and officially approved by him.

    John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance (i.e., baptism that was preceded or accompanied by repentance).

    Mark 1:4-5
    And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.


    John the Baptist was the messenger sent by God to prepare the way for the Lord. Jesus was—and is—the Lord.

    Mark 1:1-3
    The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way"—"a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.' "



    Did John the Baptist see Jesus as a sinner?

    Mark 1:6-8
    John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."


    If you examine verses 1-3 and 6-8, it's not difficult to see that John the Baptist knew that he was the messenger who was preparing the way for the Lord, and that Jesus was the Lord for whom he was preparing the way.


    Mark 1:9-11
    At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."


    The people mentioned in Mark 1:5 confessed their sins when they were baptized. "The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him [John the Baptist]. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River" (Mark 1:5).

    Now examine Mark's account of Jesus' baptism. He points to all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father speaks to the Son. God the Son is baptized. God the Holy Spirit descends on God the Son. Does that sound like the baptism of a sinner?

    John the Baptist baptized many people. They all confessed their sins when they were baptized. John the Baptist identified one person as "more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. " He identified that person as one who would "baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Does that person sound like a sinner? No. That person was Jesus.

    If you examine Mark 1:1-11, it's clear that everyone who was baptized was a sinner, except for Jesus. It's clear that John the Baptist was the messenger who prepared the way for the Lord. It's clear that the Lord was Jesus Christ. The Lord is God. God did not need to be told what to do with his life. God is not a sinner.


    Acts 19:1-5

    While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

    They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

    So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"

    "John's baptism," they replied.

    Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.


    Matthew 28:16-20

    Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
     
    #227 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 18, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2004
  8. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    KateBeckinsale:

    Do you actually like the Rockets? No disrespect intended, but I only ever see you post here about Christ. And I see you post here a lot. But, again, only ever about Christ. I know that, for real Christians, nothing else trumps JC, but any other interests? The Rockets? Anything else? For a while folks thought andymoon was only here to change weed laws, but he started posting about other stuff too. Anyway, just curious. I generally stay out of religion posts, but practically every time I come here late night I see that lightbulb lit, telling me there are new D&D posts. 9 out of 10 times it's this same thread. Just wondering if you like the Rockets too or if you just found this site by accident and can't stay away.
     
  9. Sane

    Sane Member

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    Maybe it's not difficult for a Christian, but you should be able to show me why he is quoting the Psalms. I must side with No Worries on this point, why would he just be quoting the Psalms?
     
  10. Sane

    Sane Member

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    Exactly my point. If they are equal, then why is he calling God out and asking why he's being forsaken?
     
  11. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    He wasn't dead yet, right? The new convenant did not go into effect until then.

    Jews at the time of Chrisy had their sins atoned via animal sacrifices by priests in the temple. Radical Jews at the time of Christ were breaking away from that tradition. John the Baptist was one such example of a radical Jew.
     
  12. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

    The purpose of John's baptisms was a ritual to signify that the baptistee had repented his/her sins and those sins were forgiven by God.

    At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

    As I mentioned here is a great-big-o theological train wreck, that Mark gave to the gospel writers who followed to overcome. Whether or not this account agrees with the Christology with which you believe, Mark has God announce to human Jesus for the first time in public for all to hear that Jesus is his "son". (Translating "son" may not as straight forward as it seems. Are we all not sons and daughters of the Father? Are not fellow Christians our brothers and sisters?) Minimally, Mark in this passage is having God announce to the world that Jesus is a special son with potentially a special message and mission.

    I am too lazy to look it but iirc Luke has John the Baptist tell Jesus that he is not worthy to baptise Jesus; thus, skirting the whole issue of Jesus needing his sins forgiven by baptism. IIRC2 John just punts the whole John the Baptist pericope.
     
  13. KateBeckinsale7

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    No Worries,

    A lot of the words in this post and the next one I have posted before. If you can find time to go through it, though, I think it would be worth your while. I've tried to arrange the information in a way that best explains the significance of the old covenant, the new covenant, atonement, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and other subjects. I think you know more about the Bible than many Christians, but your misunderstanding of the Christian faith and the Bible leads you to draw incorrect conclusions regarding the Christian faith and the Bible. For the moment, try to set aside those conclusions. The truth is right in front of your eyes.


    Baptism does not atone for sin. John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance—baptism that was preceded or accompanied by repentance. Only Christ's death can atone for sin. Christ's atonement applies to sins committed before, during, and after Christ's death.

    You mentioned the new covenant. Why does the Bible have an Old Testament and a New Testament? Is the God of the Christian faith so pathetic that he couldn't get it right the first time? Only if you think of the Old Testament as a failed first attempt and the New Testament as a second attempt. That's the wrong way to look at it, though.

    There are some important things to note about the Old Testament.
     
    #233 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 19, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004
  14. KateBeckinsale7

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    By the year 300 B.C. all Old Testament Books had been written, collected, revered, and recognized as official canonical books. It was God's Word. The Old Testament was translated into Greek well before Christ was born. That translation was called the Septuagint.

    In the Old Testament, God says that he will send the Messiah (the Christ) and establish a new covenant. The Old Testament is like a movie that requires a sequel. Anyone who watches The Empire Strikes Back can see that it requires a sequel. The Return of the Jedi is the sequel. It answers important questions left unanswered by The Empire Strikes Back. Anyone who reads the Old Testament can see that it requires a sequel, too. The New Testament is the sequel. It answers important questions left unanswered by the Old Testament.

    God gave the Israelites the law through Moses. The New Testament places the law in perspective. Paul writes:

    "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).


    The law highlighted the sinfulness of human beings and the holiness of God. Because we are all sinners, a person cannot be justified (declared righteous) based on his/her own merit.

    Paul explains the only way a person can be justified.

    "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:21-25).

    "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from observing the law" (Romans 3:28).

    "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:17-18).


    John the Baptist prepared the way for the mediator of a new covenant—Jesus Christ.

    "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.—Malachi 3:1


    Malachi was written about 400 years before Christ was born.

    God is a holy God. Sin separates us from God, and reconciliation requires the removal of our sins. The Day of Atonement showed that atonement was necessary for our sins to be removed. But the blood of animals can't remove human sins. The true atoning sacrifice was Jesus Christ, who died as the perfect sacrifice for sin. Our sins were imputed to Christ, and his righteousness is imputed to us. "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:25).

    Christ's death on the cross was a sacrifice of expiation, because it removed our sins. It was also a sacrifice of propitiation, because it quenched God's wrath against us, saving us from eternal punishment. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" (John 3:36).

    If you don't think the Bible is the Word of God, and if you think the New Testament writers invented the concept of Christ as an atoning sacrifice, then how do you account for Isaiah 53, which was written by the prophet Isaiah about 700 years before Christ was even born? Isaiah 53 not only makes accurate predictions about Christ, it explains the theological significance of Christ's death.

    "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5).

    "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).

    "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities" (Isaiah 53:11).



    The New Testament, in Hebrews 10, places the sacrifices prescribed by the law in the Old Testament in perspective:

    The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

    "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    but a body you prepared for me;
    with burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you were not pleased.
    Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
    I have come to do your will, O God.' "

    First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    —Hebrews 10:1-10



    The sanctuary of the tabernacle was just an earthly, imperfect, and temporary copy of the true sanctuary in heaven, and so was the sanctuary of the temple at the time of Christ. At the moment Christ died, "the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (Matthew 27:51). That was the inner curtain separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. The tearing of that curtain signified that Christ had made it possible for us to enter directly into God's presence.

    "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." —Hebrews 9:15

    "It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." —Hebrews 9:23-28



    Isaiah was written about 700 years before Christ was born. Jeremiah was written about 600 years before Christ was born. Malachi was written about 400 years before Christ was born.


    THE NEW COVENANT

    "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." —Jeremiah 31:31

    "I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles." —Isaiah 42:6

    "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. —Malachi 3:1

    "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." —Hebrews 9:15



    JOHN THE BAPTIST

    "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. —Malachi 3:1

    The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts whether John might possibly be the Christ. John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." —Luke 3:15-17



    JESUS THE CHRIST

    "I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles." —Isaiah 42:6

    "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." —Isaiah 53:5

    "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." —Isaiah 53:6

    "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." —Isaiah 53:11


    Isaiah 53:10 states that "it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer," and that "the LORD makes his life a guilt offering." Verse 11 states that the suffering servant "will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." Verse 12 states that "he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. —Malachi 3:1

    "Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle." —John 19:17-18

    "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!' After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord." —John 20:19-20


    "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." —Romans 3:21-25


    The New Testament complements the Old Testament.

    "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:17-18).


    In The Return of the Jedi, Han Solo is saved by his friends. The Empire is defeated. Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) redeems himself.

    We cannot save or redeem ourselves.

    In the New Testament, Jesus Christ emerges as the Savior and Redeemer. He lays down his life for us. He saves us from eternal punishment. He redeems us from the curse of the law.

    Christ was innocent of sin. We are all guilty of sin. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Christ was God. Christ is God.

    Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is fully God. The Son is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God. God is one Being.

    The Bible is complete. The story is not.

    "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." —Hebrews 9:27-28


    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

    There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

    He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
    —John 1:1-13


    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    —John 3:16-17
     
    #234 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 19, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004
  15. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    You are not correct. Baptism (accompanied by repentance) was a ritual to signify that the baptisee's sins are "cleansed".

    I suspect that Jews who live before and after Jesus would disagree with you about how their sins can be atoned by their God. I also suspects that Jews would also disagree with your assessment for the need of a sequel of the OT.
     
  16. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Most heresy from the low Christology in Mark chaper 10:

    Three things of heretical note:

    Jesus claims only God is good, as if God is a separate entity than himself. The same implication can be seen in Mark 10:27.

    Jesus tells the rich young man that he must obey the Ten Commandents to inherit eternal life. This well short of the bar Gospel of John sets for eternal life. No mention of believing in Jesus as the Son of God, no mention of the new convenant, etc.

    Finally, Jesus tells the rich young man to give up his possessions to the poor and follow him. In Mark 10:29, we see that Jesus is saying good deeds will lead to a richer afterlife.
     
  17. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    It's not the "deed" that's important. He is saying that the desire for riches is a problem. Jesus claims that heaven lies within, right now.
     
  18. KateBeckinsale7

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    No Worries,

    Are you claiming that I'm incorrect in asserting that baptism doesn't atone for sin?

    You yourself stated that baptism signifies inward cleansing. The key word is "signifies." Baptism signifies inward cleansing and remission of sins. It signifies regeneration by the Holy Spirit. It does not atone for sin. Christ's death atoned for our sins. Christ's death removes our sins. Baptism signifies the remission of sins.

    Baptism is an ordinance (or sacrament). An ordinance is an outward and visible symbolic rite commanded by God to be practiced by the church that sets forth a central truth of the Christian faith.

    "Christian baptism, which has the form of a ceremonial washing (like John's pre-Christian) baptism, is a sign from God that signifies inward cleansing and remission of sins, Spirit-wrought regeneration and new life, and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit as God's seal testifying and guaranteeing that one will be kept safe in Christ forever. . . . The outward sign does not automatically or magically convey the inward blessings it signifies, and the candidates' professions of faith are not always genuine. Peter had to tell the newly baptized Simon Magus that he was still unrenewed in heart (Acts 8:13-24)." —Concise Theology, J. I. Packer


    John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance—baptism that was preceded or accompanied by repentance.

    Jesus' baptism was an example for Christians to follow, but the meaning of Jesus' baptism was entirely different from the significance of Christian baptism. He was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15). The baptism of Jesus indicated that he was consecrated to God and officially approved by him.

    "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." —Romans 3:21-25

    "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." —Hebrews 9:27-28


    Do you acknowledge that—according to the Bible—only Christ's death can atone for sin? Do you acknowledge that—according to the Bible—baptism does not atone for sin?
     
  19. KateBeckinsale7

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    You are drawing incorrect conclusions because of your misunderstanding of the Christian faith and the Bible. Jesus answered the man the way he did for a reason.


    As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "


    —Mark 10:17-19


    These are excerpts from The Holiness of God, by R. C. Sproul.


    Something is often missed in this well-known meeting between Jesus and the rich ruler. It is the significance of the man's greeting to Jesus. He called Him, "Good teacher." Jesus did not miss the significance of it. Jesus knew at once that he was talking to a man who had a superficial understanding of the word good. The man wanted to talk to Jesus about salvation. Instead Jesus subtly turned the conversation around to a discussion of what goodness was. He took the opportunity to give the man an unforgettable lesson on the meaning of good.

    Jesus focused on the man's greeting. "Why do you call me good?" He accented the question with a further qualification: "No one is good—except God alone." Let a red alert sound here. Some people, even learned theologians, have stumbled over Jesus' comments. Some hear Jesus saying in effect, "Why are you calling me good? I am not good. Only God is good. I am not God. I am not good."

    By no means was Jesus denying his own deity here. Neither was he denying his own goodness. Given the right understanding it would have been perfectly fitting for the rich ruler to call Jesus good. He was the incarnation of the Good. The rich man was talking to God incarnate. The point is, however, that the rich man was not aware of that. He was honoring Jesus as a great teacher, but that is all he saw in Him. He had no idea he was speaking to God Incarnate; he had no clue he was discussing goodness with the Incarnation of the Good.

    The rich young ruler obviously did not know his Bible. He had failed to understand the meaning of Psalm 14:

    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
    They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no
    one who does good. The LORD looks down from
    heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any
    who understand, any who seek God. All have
    turned aside, they have together become corrupt;
    there is no one who does good, not even one.


    —Psalm 14:1-3


    This psalm is quoted and amplified in the New Testament by the apostle Paul. The message is unmistakable. The indictment allows for no exceptions save for the Son of God who alone achieves goodness.

    The human spirit recoils from such a universal indictment. Surely the Scriptures exaggerate. We know several people who do good. We see people perform good deeds frequently. We grant that no one is perfect. We all slip up from time to time. But we do perform a few good deeds now and then, don't we? No! This is precisely the way the rich young ruler was thinking. He was measuring goodness by the wrong standard. He was evaluating good deeds from an outward vantage point.

    God commands that we do certain good deeds. He commands that we give alms to the poor. We give our alms to the poor. That is a good deed, isn't it? Yes and no. It is good in the sense that our outward act conforms to what God commands. In that sense we do good often. But God also looks at the heart. He is concerned about our deepest motivations. For a good deed to pass the standard of God's holiness, it must flow out of a heart that loves God perfectly and loves our neighbor perfectly as well. Since none of this achieves that perfect love for God and our neighbor, all our outwardly good deeds are tarnished. The logic of the Bible is this: Since no one has a perfect heart, no one does a perfect deed.

    The law of God is the mirror of true righteousness. When we set our works before the mirror, the reflection in it tells us of our imperfections. Jesus held this mirror up before the eyes of the rich young ruler. "You know the commandments: Do not steal . . . ." It is important to note here that the commandments Jesus listed for the young ruler were those included in the so-called second table of the law, the commandments that deal with our responsibilities toward fellow human beings. These are the commandments that concern stealing, adultery, murder, and so on. Noticeably absent in Jesus' summary were the first few commandments that deal explicitly with our direct obligations to God.

    How did the rich man answer? He was not bothered. He calmly looked in the mirror and so no imperfections. In what can only be described as a smug manner, the man replied: "All these I have kept since I was a boy."

    Imagine the arrogance or the ignorance of the man. I find it hard to understand Jesus' patience. I would have instantly expressed my indignation by saying something like, "What! You have kept the Ten Commandments since you were a boy! You haven't kept any of the Ten Commandments for the last five minutes. Didn't you hear the Sermon on the Mount? Don't you realize if you are unjustly angry with someone, you have violated the deeper meaning of the law against murder? Don't you know that if you lust after a woman, you break the deeper law of adultery? Don't you ever covet? Have you ever and always honored your parents? You are mad or blind. Your obedience has been superficial at best. You obey on the surface only."

    That is how I would have handled it. Jesus was more subtle, and more effective:

    When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still
    lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give
    to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
    Then come, follow me."
    —Luke 18:22

    If Jesus ever spoke with tongue-in-cheek it was here. If we take Jesus' words literally, we would be forced to conclude that the conversation took place betweeen the two most righteous men in history: that it was a dialogue between the Lamb without blemish and a lamb with only one blemish. I would be delighted to hear from Jesus that my moral perfection lacked only one thing.

    We know better. If we speculate and try to get into the secret recesses of Jesus' mind, we can imagine a thought process that went something like this: Oh, you have kept all the commandments since you were a child. Well, let's see. What is the first commandment? Oh, yes. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Let's see how you handle that one.


    Jesus put him to the test. If anything in the rich man's life came before God, it was his money. Jesus set the challenge precisely at this point, at the point of the man's obedience to commandment number one: "Go, sell all that you have . . . ."

    What did the man do? How did he handle his only blemish? He walked away sorrowfully, for he had great possessions. The man was put to the test of the Ten Commandments and he flunked out after the first question.

    The point of this narrative is not to lay down a law that a Christian must get rid of all private property. The point is for us to understand what obedience is and what goodness actually requires. Jesus called the man's bluff, and he folded.
     
    #239 KateBeckinsale7, Apr 19, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004
  20. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Are you claiming that I'm incorrect in asserting that baptism doesn't atone for sin?

    I have muddled.

    Atonement for Sins

    Before Jesus's Death:

    1. Mainstream Jews had their sins atoned through ritual scrifices of small animals by their priests in their temple. This is the old convenant.

    2. Radical Jews, like John The Baptist, just repented their sins and took part in a ritual baptism. (I may be wrong but I am assuming that believers got baptism regularly.)

    After Jesus's Death:

    3. Jesus's sacrifice/death atones for all sins. This is the new convenant.

    For those Jews who did not convert to Christianity rules #1 and #2 still apply. This is where I was trying to say you were incorrect.

    Jesus' baptism was an example for Christians to follow, but the meaning of Jesus' baptism was entirely different from the significance of Christian baptism. He was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15). The baptism of Jesus indicated that he was consecrated to God and officially approved by him.

    This is Gospel of Matthew correcting the Gospel of Mark.

    Rhetorical Question: Just think where we would be if God The Father had not officially approved of his son Jesus?

    A divine Jesus would not have needed to repent his sins and to be baptised. Mark is clear as he can be about Jesus lack of divinity at his baptism.
     
    #240 No Worries, Apr 19, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004

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