I agree with everything except the "tampering" part. Tampering is not a good word. I believe humans make mistakes, and any number of things could have happened. Maybe something got lost, maybe something was forgotten, I don't know, there's no actual evidence or proof. I'll put it in a better way: I believe in the message that God wanted those 5 prophets to deliver to the people. I believe in the MESSAGE. As for the books, if there is something in the Qura;an opposing what's in the other books, I have to believe that something may have gone wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, for that difference to occur. There is absolutely no one or nothing to day that can prove how these differences occurred.
This can be interpreted many ways. Can I get a non-Christian and non-Muslim to confirm that? What if it's just one messenger that's being talked about? Seeing as how the language is a bit blurry, I could even interpret it as Jesus being the messenger who will prepare the way and Muhammad as the messenger of the covenant since Muhammad is the one who was visited in his "temple". In response to your Jesus sightings after he was resurrected post, I'm not denying they saw those things. Maybe they were hallucinating, maybe there were in shock and pain, or maybe they saw Jesus but not in human (flesh) form? Maybe they saw his soul? There are people in the world who will swear by anything that they saw a dead person. It's very possible they did see what they saw. How many times have you heard of people seeing someone close who very recently passed away? How many times are these sightings hallucinations and how many times are they real? Those sightings don't prove anything. That scripture is 100% accurate.
For the moment, I'm not arguing the case. I'm just trying to determine how you reconcile certain accounts in the Gospels with your beliefs. You believe that the crucifixion of Christ was an illusion and that the appearances of Christ could have been hallucinations. Do you think it's reasonable to think that Christ's disciples were all hallucinating? Why would they see the same things at the same time? How do you explain the empty tomb? John 20:1-9 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
If the person who was crucified wasn't really Jesus, then why didn't that person scream that he wasn't Jesus at some point? And how do you account for the words spoken by the person nailed to the cross if that person wasn't really Jesus? Mark 15:33 At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Luke 23:32-34 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. Luke 23:39-46 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. John 19:25-30 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Jesus—God the Son—was addressing God the Father. Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The word God can refer to the Father, to the Son, to the Spirit, or to all three persons at once—the Godhead en toto. John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:10-14 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. http://aomin.org/trinitydef.html
<TABLE><TR><TD><b>schiz·o·phre·ni·a</b> <BR> <I>n.</I> <OL><LI>Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and is caused by genetic, other biological, and psychosocial factors.</LI> <LI> A situation or condition that results from the <b>coexistence of disparate or antagonistic qualities, identities, or activities</b>: <CITE>the national schizophrenia that results from carrying out an unpopular war.</CITE></LI> </OL></TD> </TR></TABLE>
1 Corinthians 1:20-21 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
I guess that you do not find it curious that we attribute a behavior to God that if found in humans would be a one way ticket to the funny farm. A subtle point wrt the quote above from Mark is that it is noticably a literary device. Minimalistically as a human, God could read every thought of Jesus. One would think that Jesus would know that he did not have to talk for God to hear. Thus, this passage is literary device for the reader. Another subtle point is that Jesus like his father is all knowing. Why did Jesus not see this coming? Why is Jesus thinking that his father has forsaken him? The higher Christology found in John implies that Jesus knew his mission a priori (that he would be born and sacrificed for our sins). This quote does not allow for this. "Why have you forsaken me?" The purpose of Jesus walk on the Earth was to establish a new convenant with God. This might have originally been place into Mark as a comment toward the onlookers versus God: "Why have you forsaken me (and forced me to die on a cross to start the new convenant)?" Later redacters may not have got this point and changed it around (via a "copying error") to be directed toward God the Father.
Don't have time to reply to your posts KB, but these points that No Worries made are things that I have always wondered about. I hope you're going to reply with something good.
Mark 15:33-36 At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah." One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to take him down," he said. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1. He was not asking a question of surprise. He fully understood that he was paying the price for our sins. "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24). Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? Mark 15:33-36 At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Romans 5:8 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
So he was in an open tomb the whole time? What's up with "the other disciple"? What's his name? Why isn't his name mentioned? "The one Jesus loved"? Doesn't God love all his "children" equally? It's rather curious that there was no caskette (sp?). The way that he's described as to have been put in the tomb is the Muslim way btw. Just a note, maybe I'm taking it out of context by mistake. So, as the story goes, the tombstone was gone. Then the other disciple and Simon Peter heard about it, and head to the tomb. The first guy did nothing, then Simon Peter WENT into Jesus' tomb? Then the other guy went in as well? How long after he died was this? If the tomb was so open to access, what exactly stopped someone who hated Jesus to just come and remove his body?
Eloi, Eloi means God, God... Not My God, My God.... Am I right? Does anyone here recognize Aramaik? Since it's close to Arabic, I have to note that it seems like it translates to God... not My God.
Ummmm... You're nailed to a cross, at exactly what point do you think to say "I'm not Jesus!" This may not have known that he was taking Jesus' place. Oh, but apparently he didn't say quiet. He yelled out "Eloi Eloi, lama sabachthani?" This person was obviously wondering why God took him and put him in this position. Did God take an innocent peron's life? I think so. But what betetr fate is there than saving Jesus, and because you died for him, going to heaven? Isn't heaven the ultimate goal?
Why wouldn't he have screamed that he wasn't Jesus before they crucified him? When do you think God made the switch? How do you explain his words to the criminal who said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom"? How do you explain his words to Jesus' mother and his words to John? Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." John 19:25-27 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
I don't know exactly at which point. It doesn't really matter. I told you that I believe God may have wanted the disciples to see "Jesus" die. So he's not going to replace him with someone who says "I'm not Jesus, don't kill me." Still, it doesn't mater, they would've killed him anyway. "I tell you the truth..." What exactly does that prove? They were going to ehaven, and he knew it. The Qura'an says he was replaced with what I can best translate into "the similar looker". It could have been a real person, or just some entity created for this purpose. It could have been a person who knew his fate and was ther eto serve a purpose. IF it was The Shabih and not Jesus who said they will go to paradise, then maybe that was true and maybe not. If it was still Jesus, then most probably it's true. From the evidence, I'm guessing the switch occured just before death. In the final possible moment probably. My answer to your second quote is exactly like the answer to the first. It could have ben a number of things. That quote doesn't prove that Jesus died on the cross. It proves that the person on the cross, whether jesus or not, knew what was going on, I'll give you that. The person thought that those people were going to paradise and thought that the disciple should take Jesus' mother into his home.
Don't hold your breath. KB7 can only dispute my points by showing other scripture that confirms her beliefs, but KB7 can not address the inconsistencies of Mark with the other three Gospels. Bible (as well as secular) scholars agree that Mark is the first Gospel written. Matthew and Luke follow, with John being the decidedly last Gospel written. From Mark to John, Jesus's divinity grew as the Christian theology matured. Mark's account is considered low Christology while John's is considered high Christology. You might have noticed KB7's fondness for quoting John, since it is the gospel that is in most agreement with the current Christology. There are pointedly theological problems in Mark as compared to John. Mark starts out with Jesus's baptism by John the Baptist, which is the start of Jesus's ministries. The baptism in Mark represents two major fundamental theological problems. The first problem is that people then were baptised to atone for their sins. Thus, Jesus would not need to be baptised if he were indeed sinless and divine. Mathew's and Luke's account of the baptism had to do back flips to right the theological train. This would be a very good example of where the Gospels are not in agreement. The second problem is that in Mark Jesus first becomes aware of his earthly mission after the baptism. A divine Jesus would not have needed to be informed (or have his sins atoned). Thus, Mark's Jesus is not divine at birth, but becomes so at death Are these theological problems in Mark "show stoppers" for the Christian faith? History would say no. I eagarly await KB7 to quote more from the Gospel of John in response to this post.
