If you can explain how I am imposing my beliefs on you, I will be happy. I have not imposed my beliefs on you at all, I have merely stood up for my right to have my own moral code and belief system.
I don't think we will ever be able to definitevely determine when life begins. Even so I think everyone has said that they would like to see that there are no unwanted pregnancies to render the issue of abortion moot. My own view of the practical reality of the situation though says that won't happen and whether you legally ban abortion or not there will still be abortions.
I've seen this raised recently over a few different issues and I still don't understand this argument. How is the absence of government intervention, in this case a law banning abortion, an imposition of beliefs on you?
Our code of laws says something about our national character. A law that allows the termination of a life in utero fails us all as humans and in doing so forces a belief on me as that law represents me. We can debate until the cows come home something that we may never know (or we may already know) and that is at what instant that that life became human. On the other hand we can consider that it was human from the first moment of creation and value it like we do other innocent human life. Nothing ever comes from it but human life, so that would seem to be a pretty safe assumption... and also a loving and caring assumption, too. The price of being wrong is the taking of an innocent human life. The price of being right is another innocent human being given a life to live. To make that decision for them assumes a great responsibility over what may be and certainly will be an innocent human being.
I really do respect your passion for this issue and your deeply held beliefs. It is a shame that those beliefs are so deeply held though that you will never be able to participate in a reasoned discussion on the topic which might lead to improved circumstances. I'm not trying to be critical at all here (in this post anyway). I really do honor true belief, even in the face of literally impossible odds. And you do face impossible odds. Because you honestly view abortion as the mass murder of innocents, you will never be okay with anything less than criminalization of the practice. This country has tried that before with disastrous results and, particularly since women make up half the electorate or more, it will never go back.
ROFLMAO - you are just playing hard to like. I mean honestly this is funny. Giddyup - believe what you want, it is a free country. Free as in....freedom of choice to have an abortion, if you don't like it, you can either : A. Move B. Work to change the law I suggest B, and good luck with it. As for imposing beliefs, you do not have a choice, it is a country of laws, and the laws allow a freedom of choice.....all of us have views we don't agree with imposed on us each and every day....oh well, welcome to democracy... DD
I have offered several concessions: rape, incest and life/death issues of the mother's health. I'm on the edge about late-term abortions as personally I'd rather go meet my maker than lay 20 or 70 years imprisoned in a body that cuts me off from meaningful human interaction. Abortion is not mass murder. It is one death at a time decreed by different persons. That's why it is not so hopeless. The law is the greatest "mass" aspect of it. Yes, the odds are long, but I know women who are pro-Life... something you don't seem to consider a possibility. Anything that is a matter of conscience can be won over if enough hearts are stirred to the reality.
That is what I'm doing but there are those here who are discouraging me as if it were a waste of my time. Laws change. This one did and maybe it can revert. That is my choice!
Mister Fantastic has nothing on your ability to stretch. We don't have to debate it. Everyone believes differently and everyone's beliefs are valid. Nobody has the right to force their beliefs on another and as such, you are free to believe what you like. You do not, however, get to define "life" for other people. No, the price of taking your view is forcing the entire country to live based on YOUR code of morality rather than their own. The price is removing the ability of a woman to choose what happens in her body because YOU believe something that she does not. You do not have the right to make that decision for them. That decision is between them, their doctor, and their God. You have no place in that decision making process.
It won't change back, you are spinning your wheels when you could be making a difference. Moreover, you are creating a situation where people like me feel we have to defend woman's rights from you, which reduces our opportunity to actually make a difference as well. Thanks for being such a huge part of the problem, keep it up!
Great, that is what you should do, and it is a reasonable and noble pursuit. If you are not successful, it doesn't diminish your efforts. I wish you luck, though I will always be on the other side of your argument, so we cancel each other out. DD
If one life is saved that is a huge difference... and since this is one decision made at a time, you never know when someone has searched their heart about what they are about to do. I have no power except that of speech. Why are you so busy defending someone so powerless?
Except that you are trying to regulate morality, sort of like the Mullah's over in Iran..... And now those people are all screaming for freedom, whereas you are trying to impose your version of morality, and your belief system upon others, when according to our laws it is none of your business. So, work to change the laws, by all means....maybe one day people will switch to your viewpoint, but until that time keep working to change the laws. The original topic of this thread was about a delusional moron who took matters into his own hands and killed a doctor instead of working for the greater good of the entire community as a whole. You believe - good for you - but if others choose to believe differently, and right now the majority do - then it is on you to change their minds. How do you think you are doing so far? DD
Because your speech could remove choices that women should have and that would be a travesty. If I didn't have to busy myself with this type of argument, I might be more inclined to join you for a night of passing out condoms or "morning after" pills at closing time, you know, in order to have an actual impact. As long as you are talking about removing a woman's choice, you will have me there defending it.
Well, typically in this format you only hear from your opponents. The more opposed they are, the more you hear from them!! I just keep trying to portray the truth that I see. My viewpoint is very simple and straightforward-- Occam's Razor if you will.
I thought my argument was null and void without merit? Why should that be countered? What threat is there? I haven't tracked it, but I know that for myself I'm rarely here at "final call." Head on down to those places and do your thing. You have nothing to fear from me here; we are just chatting back and forth some notions of life and death.
I can sort of see your point that as a member of society you feel that society is wrong to be permissive. That is a collective view though and in while you think society is wrong what you feel is an imposition on you is that that view isn't shared by the rest of society enough to be expressed in law. What you are getting at is that the inability of you to legally see your point of view is actually an enforcement of values on you. The problem I have with that is that you are trying to turn a negative position into a positive position (not as in bad or good but in terms of an action versus a non-action). At the moment there is no law stopping abortion but there is no law forcing people to have abortions either. While you might not like abortions no one is forcing you to have them, your problem is that they legally aren't being stopped. That is not you being forced to accept a belief that is you being unable to enforce a belief on others through legal means. The other problem with this point of view is that even if you feel that societies morals don't match your own and you are tainted by a too permisive society you always have the option of leaving the society. So to claim that the society is forcing you to accept a certain set of beliefs I don't think is logical.
There is no truth here, only opinion, and your opinion about how the law should be written is in the minority, and until you can change that to the majority, you are going to have to live by the rule of the rest of us. DD
How about a law that legalizes killing redheads? No one has to kill a redhead but it is allowed. Would you feel comfortable in a society with such a law? Isn't the principle the same? In what other area of the law do we value life so little? Why is that?
