I did not make that assumption. I am firmly against banning a medical procedure that should be carried out in a regulated facility by a licensed physician, a ban that you seem to support. Further, I believe that if the people who spend their time and energy protesting abortion clinics were to focus their attention on things that could reduce unplanned pregnancies, that we would actually reduce abortion rates. I also believe that if the people and groups who support trying to overturn Roe in the courts were to spend their money on things that reduce unplanned pregnancies, we would see an even bigger reduction in abortion rates.
This kind of parallels the debate I was having with Batman Jones in another thread regarding how to approach issues. I think most of us agree that there are ways to address the situation more constructively and everyone seems to be agreeing that sex education is the way to go. What this comes down to is what do we mean by being Pro-Life or Pro-Choice. To me it comes down to a legislative ban. For me personally I can't support a broad ban and believe it will lead to far greater problems than what we have now.
giddyup, please re-read shadypink's post. Your initial response was kind of dismissive, as if you did not register what she said in what was the most important and heartfelt post in this thread. I would like to hear your response to her story. Is enforced gestation your only goal? What then? What happens when that portion of these embryos that are born into impoverished, abusive, and hellish existences grow up to inflict retribution on their environment? What is your position on the death penalty? Does it serve a valuable societal purpose? giddyup, we all realize your intentions are good but Huxley once said, “Hell isn't merely paved with good intentions, it is walled and roofed with them.” PS - shadypink, we are all glad you are here with us today. Thanks.
Didn't you say something against my protesting outside abortion clinics? You've made me into a caricature that suits your purposes.
I've read that post about eight times. It's a powerful story and a testimony to shadypink's character and self-image. However, I keep looking for the part where she regrets her life. Other than a remark made about friends getting her through some low points, I see nothing of that kind of sentiment-- certainly not a pervasive outlook. Especially do I not see it from what I take do be a healthy, appreciative, optimistic current outlook on life that she has now. Nowhere from a current point of view does she indicate that she wishes her mother had aborted her as she looks back on her life. I don't see anybody saying that they wish shadypink had been aborted, do you? If that's not a pro-Life argument, what does one look like? My goal is not enforced gestation, it is preservation of life? Is your goal the termination of life? I don't think so. Unfortunately, those are the two side of the coin in this debate. Whichever side you pick, it is all too easy to accuse one of the other side as they are tethered. It may be that classic lesser-of-two-evils situation. i have no interest in meddling in the lives of others... until it gets to the point where it is costing an innocent life. I meet with a group of about 8 men. It's a non-denominational, faith-based but Christian-oriented life strategy group. About half of these men grew up with no father; he just vanished when they were young. Other than that, you know what trait they have in common? They all excel as fathers. None came from any kind of privileged background. One knocked around an orphanage or two but went on to a career in the Marines and municipal police force. I doubt that their existence was as "hellish" as shadypink's but they like her are glad to be alive... and they didn't succumb to a mindset that was about retribution on innocent people. I have no problem with the death penalty for capital crime. With current technology we can be pretty sure of guilt in what were formerly largely circumstantial cases. My main opposition to the death penalty today is that it is inefficient to administer due to our legal system. A guilty person is a very different animal from an innocent person.
I don't know that I disagree except to say that those are problems we deserve if it comes to that. I can't get behind a law that terminates innocent lives to make our potential problems go away when there are two better solutions with no downside: 1) Abstinence or 2) Acceptance of Personal Responsibility.
First, thanks to everyone for the very kind words. They are more than text on a screen to me, and I genuinely appreciate them. Second, I want to address this: The first sentence I wrote was, "I wish I would have been aborted", then deleted it, because after I read it over, I decided it would probably generate more pity and that's not what I want. But I stand by that. I believe I have a pretty nice life now, because I know what's really important. I'm still deeply in love with my boyfriend of 6 years and our relationship is stronger than ever, I have my sisters and my best friends that have become surrogate siblings, and I absolutely LIVE for my 27 nieces and nephews. They are everything to me. But even with the awesome power of love and an appreciation for the blessings I do have, I struggle every day with depression and constantly think about suicide. I could never go through with it, because I know it would devastate the people I love most in the world. But I can honestly say that I wish I was never born.
shady - have you ever sought out a counselor/doctor to talk this stuff through with? if you're having or have had those thoughts, i think it would be a great idea. you are right...that decision would devastate those who love you....because they love you. because you have value simply for being you.
I am so glad that you have the strength and optimism to fight through the struggles that have been heaped upon you by those who should have loved you better. May your life be a testimony for others...
Max, I believe that no amount of counseling will help me. I know why I am depressed. I know that the way my mother treated me and the sexual abuse were no fault of my own. I know that the harm that they caused me stemmed from their own problems. I understand my mother and her background very well and my ex brother-in- law was just a disturbed person. What else is a counselor going to tell me? No amount of words will take the memories and pain away and I do not want to be pushed a prescription. I am generally unfazed by my problems in everyday life, but the depression strikes at random moments and it can range from just thoughts passing through my mind to completely crippling. But, I am resolved to live my life, no matter how hard it may get because of my love for family and friends. Thank you. I just wanted to relay that I trust the judgment of the women making this very difficult decision. I believe that 99.9% of the time, they are acting in the best interests of the potential life inside of them, whether they realize it or not.
shady, i would highly recommend counseling as well. you said yourself that you don't want pity and that right there can cause you to keep feelings to yourself that you should otherwise get out. there is nothing like speaking with someone who is completely unbiased where you can say whatever you are truly feeling without worrying what they think.
In an ideal world yes abstinence and acceptance of personal responsibility would be the rule but how much as those worked out? The problems you say we deserve are the problems that existed when abortion was prohibited. A dangerous and unregulated underground of abortion. You end up with the worst of both worlds abortion still hapening but women getting butchered in the process. If you think that is what we deserve then I strongly disagree with you.
I agree and raised this point earlier. None of us wish that Shadypink weren't here so in hindsight yes it was better she weren't aborted. The problem is that we don't know the future. I am willing to say that abortion is tragic but we don't know if the consequences otherwise wouldn't be more tragic.
Shady, Thanks again for sharing so generously here. Let me add my voice to the chorus of people encouraging therapy. Therapy is not a place to change you or help you understand why you're depressed or make it go away. It's just a safe environment where you can vent and cry (if needed) and find some release. There's not a person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from it. It doesn't make the bad feelings go away; it just makes it easier to coexist with them, which in turn makes it easier to stick around and remain available to the ones you love.
We don't know the future and that's why a terminal solution like abortion is so tragic. Women are give this choice when they feel the most alone and the most ashamed or frightened and, as some have indicated, maybe even pressured-- especially by boyfriends. Many here have "mocked" the abstinence movement, but boys who subscribe to it aren't just trying to get you drunk and get into your pants just for tonight-- if you are a young woman. When you are first facing an unwanted pregnancy, it is not really a good time to make such an important decision? Is that why so much guilt and shame follows the lives of those who take abortion as a way out?
I have a problem with people, in general, protesting outside abortion clinics. If that does not apply to you, then it doesn't.
Yes all of that is terrible but its not my place to make that decision for them especially if I suspect that if they have decided already they will get an abortion by other, non-legal means. Yet the abstinence only based sexual education has been shown to be no more effective than non-abstinence programs. http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/pdfs/impactabstinence.pdf When is the time then? Afterbirth? The timing for such a decision is when the situation arises. I'm not saying that is a good thing just the nature of a decision. As for why so many women feel guilt and shame it is because it is a difficult decision and the Pro-Choice movement calling women who do so "murderers" doesn't help. At the sametime though single mothers and the mothers who have had unplanned pregnancies often feel a lot of guilt and shame too. Both Finalsbound and Shadypink's example shows that either way there can be a lot of emotional pain. My point is that there are strong reasons for the decision either way but for me I can't make that decision for someone else and I don't think the law should.
1. My point was about people embracing the abstinence lifestyle and said nothing about abstinence-based education. 2. The pressure brought on by the fact that no one can stop the clock is a horrific factor, but I think we all realize that the best decisions are almost never made under extreme time and circumstantial duress. 3. Yes, there can be pain in life. Mostly we deal with it in the most constructive way we can that doesn't affect other people. That is what I am advocating.
Thank you again for your posts. Please don't take this wrong but I have started to pray for you, just that you would be encouraged. You are obviously a very special gift to 27 other very special children. I believe your love is strong.
Some will and some won't. For those that won't, education about contraception and reproduction is necessary. As are some of the best decisions. It is never good to be forced make a life-changing decision under duress and with a time constraint, but in the circumstance we are discussing, that is the nature of the decision. No, you are advocating to remove the choice from the woman altogether, which will "affect other people" (people other than you) in a major way. Not everyone shares your belief that the embryo or fetus qualifies as "people" and you don't have the right to force that belief on anyone else.
