Well, no it was not. Using the qualifier "medical" in that place made it read like there was a question of well-being for the mother. Since I am pro-Choice when it comes to life and death issues for the mother, this was my natural interpretation. That is what I "agreed" with, but that is not what you meant, so I quickly retracted my "agreement" when you made clearer what you were saying there.
The thing is, I do share an opinion with you about what our national will is on this subject. We need to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which will naturally lead to reduced numbers of abortions. I do not share your desire to force your own personal morality onto people who do not share it. You are welcome to your opinion and I will respect it as long as you can respect the opinions and choices of people whose choices are none of your business. You could have an actual impact if you talked your pro-life brethren into working hard to stop abortions before they even become necessary by preventing unwanted pregnancy. Unfortunately, you are so caught up in your dogma (the pro-life dogma, not anything religious) that you seem to find any possible excuse to avoid such actions. The time to have an impact on abortion numbers is before the unwanted pregnancy happens in the first place.
Just remember that you'll have to scale the fence while no one is watching. They generally don't want people waking up the sleeping big cats; some people think it makes them cranky. Don't forget to yodel "GIDDYUP" as you leap from the fence into their pen.... it will be exciting for you; wish I could be there to watch...
I'm not forcing my morality on others unless there is a change in the law and then it won't be about just giddyup, will it? Changing the abortion laws in this country will be revolutionary. Generally, revolutions require tenacity. I'm all for preventing unwanted pregnancies (so stop implying that I'm not) but what about when prevention is a lost opportunity? What about the woman pregnant NOW with an unplanned baby? It's not in my make-up just to leave those babies at risk.
So I'm supposed to support a pro-Choice position so that women can have abortions so they don't have to go through the gestational and birth processes? Is that the kind of well-being you are concerned with... or is it the life and death kind? Cause I can get behind the latter but not the former because it is life and death for the child in question.
You are attempting to force your morality on others by trying to restrict their choices based on your personal morality. Going back to abortion prohibition is a pipe dream. There may be more restrictions in the future, but "changing the abortion laws" to ban the procedure, save the common pro-life approved caveats (incest, rape, physical health of the mother) is a non-starter. Even when the GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency, that movement didn't move forward much at all. You are all for paying lip service to preventing unwanted pregnancies. By focusing your efforts on a paper ban of abortions, you are choosing not to focus on an area where you could actually have an impact. It is too late to have an impact on her if she has already made her choice. The time to have an impact on her unplanned pregnancy ended about 36 hours after she had sex. At that point, your only option is to respect her decision. You and the rest of the pro-life crowd (the ones that focus on banning abortions) are complicit in the risk you mention. If y'all would instead focus on reducing unplanned pregnancies, then the number of women having abortions next week, next month, or next year would be lower. If, instead of protesting at an abortion clinic (which will not convince any of the women entering to change their minds), the same number of people accosted couples leaving clubs at 2 AM to distribute condoms and "morning after" pills, you would actually reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies and also abortions.
The law is the law. It's been changed and can be changed back. Roe v Wade did not come down from the mountaintop with Moses. That's politics. It will take time. You know nothing of what any pro-Life supporter is doing. I don't know why you would dare pretend to know such a thing about people you don't even know. I get your position and totally understand it... I just don't see it as an exclusive thing. There are lives at stake that NO NUMBER OF SEMINARS, WEBINARS, or TONS OF PAMPHLETS ON PREGNANCY PREVENTION will protect. But what if she hasn't made up her mind? Didn't you kind of skip that step... or just take it for granted? Good and well but that's not the total picture. I'm sure there are those who do that. I'm not sure how you can so cavalierly say what will or will not change someone's mind. You are welcome to your opinion, of course, but you will just have to excuse me if I'm not discouraged by your viewpoint.
I foresee detention centers where conflicted mothers-to-be are forcibly detained until they can complete their gestation periods and give birth to god's little gifts. The post-gestational period may require either re-education for the mother to be taught how to love their "gift" or allow the "gift" to be raised within the confines of "God's Little Gift Ministry and Adoption Center." It will be beautiful.
Let's say you woke up one day with a bunch of tubes attached to your veins, transferring blood to another person sitting in a bed next to you. This other person would die without your blood. Should you be obligated to remain attached to this person?
That's immaterial to the analogy. Giddyup introduced the standard of placing another person's life above one's own health, in which case you would be obligated to remain attached to the tubes. You are speaking to a different issue: whether a woman should be required to carry a baby to term as a consequence of her actions. There are further problems with this standard. I'm trying to pin down giddy's actual reason for his anti-choice stance, so let's leave the goalposts where they are for now, mmkay?
So then your question is not analagous to the abortion debate since I assume you are asking him regarding his quote where he says something like, "if I can save a life I will endeavor to do so". Or is there another response you are referring to?
I'm referring to the response I quoted when I initially presented the analogy. I'm not sure why you would assume otherwise.
No, it didn't, but I can't think of an example where the government gave the people the right to do something and subsequently rescinded that with the exception of slavery, which took a war to settle. All of the other examples are of rights being taken away and subsequently granted again (prohibition). Roe v. Wade didn't come down from the mountaintop, but neither did your opinion. There might come a day when there are further restrictions, but a blanket ban on elective abortions will not happen this century. Yes, I do. They protest abortion clinics, flood internet message boards with their moralistic preaching (with some exceptions, sorry, Max), and some of them murder abortion providers while they are in church. There may be some who focus on the things that will actually reduce abortions, but in my experience, those people are the exception rather than the rule. I "dare pretend" because I know and regularly interact with plenty of people who are pro-life. I certainly extrapolate based on the people that I know, as you seem to, but I also see the things that some pro-lifers do and as such, I feel like I know quite alot about the people you claim I "don't even know." On this, you are just flat wrong. If the people who are passionate about this subject (side doesn't matter) were able to spend their energy, time, and money fighting the root cause, there would be a major impact on the number of unwanted pregnancies. As such, you are contributing to the problem rather than the cure. By the time she shows up at the abortion clinic, it is reasonable to assume that she has made up her mind. No amount of protesting, calling her names, or even begging is warranted. She has the right to make up her own mind how her body is used. I don't have any problem with people trying to convince women to have and give their babies up for adoption, particularly if the ones doing the convincing are also willing to supply food, medicine, checkups, and otherwise help the pregnant woman to afford to have the baby. I just believe that you will be able to convince her to use a condom or take a "morning after" pill more easily than you will convince her to bring to term and bear a baby she doesn't want. No, just the part that you seem to be ignoring and the one where you could actually have a positive impact. I can tell you with 99% confidence that protestors at an abortion clinic are not going to do anything but alienate a woman who is about to enter. If you believe otherwise, you need to look at the actions of those people again.
Because the post you quoted was dealing with abortions and for the most part women make a decision to participate in an act which may produce a child. I don't see anywhere in the post you responded to with your analogy, where giddyup talks about saving lives outside of abortion.
Giddy said the health of the mother is not sufficient justification for abortion because the life of the child is at stake. Therefore, the health of the guy strapped to the tubes is not a sufficient justification to remove said tubes because the life of the other guy is at stake.
I knew a girl my freshman year of college who had an abortion. It was a VERY painful decision for her. Upon finding out about the pregnancy, the father of the child immediately refused to have anything to do with her. Her parents, who were very religious and influential in their home community, would have stopped paying for her college and would have essentially disowned her if they knew that she not only was pregnant, but that she casually dated someone (they only approved of courtship). She was friends with my roommate and spent several nights talking to her in our room...she was ALWAYS crying. She grew up with the sincere conviction that abortion was wrong. She made a grave mistake by sleeping with a guy she thought cared about her, but did not even answer her calls after the one time they had sex. Raging hormones, unfortunately, are powerful. So were the expectations in her first relationship. Now...whether or not you are pro-life or pro-choice, you have so have SOME sort of compassion for this girl. She was faced with the choice of dropping out of college at 18 to bear and raise a child, ALONE, facing the scorn of her family, friends, and community. Or she could discreetly make an appointment at planned parenthood to have an abortion. She's now a business college graduate who'd engaged to a Baylor Medical student. Does it hurt her to know she terminated her pregnancy nearly 4 years ago? I'm sure it does. But does she regret it? I couldn't answer that. Not all women who have had abortions have the same story. But I'm sure many have variations. A striking thing to me, when talking to a lot of women at post-abortion meetings (I used to volunteer at a Pregnancy Crisis Center) was that the father is so many times not in the picture. He either ran out on her or wants nothing to do with a kid. The woman is alone, scared, and absolutely desperate. Would these women maybe choose to carry the baby to term if she knew she had a a loving network around her that could provide basic needs-money for food, doctor visits, everything required for pregnant women? Who could help her support herself after the birth, give her a job, finance child care? I think so. But a lot of times they don't have any of that. So with no resources, no support from the father, facing scorn from family - you're telling me you don't understand how a woman might make the difficult choice to terminate the pregnancy, especially when no one but her has to know about any of it? I think everyone can agree that abortion is a terrible thing, but there are circumstances during pregnancies that make women feel like they have no other option. THESE THINGS HAPPEN. There will be unwanted pregnancies even if abortion was illegal - who knows what desperation would cause them to do? I'd venture to guess that suicide rates would definitely go up in young women, as well as back alley abortions. The rational and most EFFECTIVE way to reduce abortions in the future is to educate people and have widespread contraceptive availability. The best way to reduce abortions NOW is to marry or completely subsidize the life of a woman who is considering abortion. Or convince the father to get on board. Most of what I see is just telling women that they are selfish.
you guys should really make a new thread about pro-life or pro-choices cause this thread has really derail from the topic. so is this post .
