I am not playing god, you are. You are determining when human life begins and when it is murder or not - and putting your belief - religious or not - over the control a woman has over herself. What gives you the right to play god? What gives you the right to tell women what they have to grow or nurture in their bodies. What gives you the right to decide when life begins? That's what you are doing just as much as anyone else is. I don't life by the same belief system. I don't think a fetus is a human life. It's a fetus. It's a potential life. That's my belief. But I don't impose it upon you. But that's what you are doing to others...including my future daughters and grand-daughters. You have no right to interfere - who are you to play god? The idea that you would think you can force someone i care about over such a personal decision is kinda disturbing. You can believe whatever you want, but I am thankful that the law, the country, and the Supreme court stand for a secular nation based on the constitution, not your moral imperative.
Excuse me? How do you think you know better what I want than I do? That's just ridiculous in extreme. If criminalizing abortion reduces abortion, it will save baby's lives. If some woman would rather serve herself up to a "back-alley butcher" than bring her own creation into the world that's on her own poor thinkin. There are no "back-alley abortions" that would not have been done in a medical clinic, too. Point #1: Had they remained abstinent, they wouldn't be pregnant. Point #2: my admission regarding my own personal history was not offered out of egocentrism, it was offered to counter a claim of the impossibility of abstinence and the inevitability of premarital sexual relations. That is just a lie that deserves exposing. Point #3: Every time we intercede on behalf of an innocent victim we are interfering, i.e. "making that determination" for someone else. You have to have the courage of your convictions.
rhad... meet the Year 1972. No one is immune from criticism. Max did not seem offended by my assertion but you are. In a way, that proves the point I made. I don't think Max would disagree with my position. He may disagree with my approach... just like I disagree with his... but I am contemplating his argument.
Hogwash. I determine nothing. The DNA says it is a unique human being. The characteristics are there. Your side has to rationalize arguments about "when life begins" in order to justify your law which protects a right to choose the life or death of another human being. How can you assert your belief about when a creature is a human, then kill it, and then have the temerity to say that you are not imposing your belief. Don't even try the daughter card; I have three of them. Go to Wiki and look up "1972." Our law books are full of morality. Have you raped or murdered lately? They won't let you!!!!!!!
Wow, just wow. After all of the very well thought out posts in this thread, you still have no clue about the myriad of reasons that an individual may seek an abortion. Maybe someone should post the grisly pictures of botched back alley abortions.
The question is, was he a Christian Terrorist? The answer is simple. Yes He killed a innocent man, a man at church while his family sung in the choir and he never broke the law. He was never convicted, but thought guilty by a minority. The man that killed him had many run inns with the law, had been making many terrorising threats about his non-beliefs, had been found with explosives in his vehicle, was anti-government and refused to pay taxes. But he seems to be defended by some of the pro-life crusaders. Was it a terrorist act? Of coarse it was. His act was clearly meant to put fear in doctors, women, families and any that did not believe his ideals. This is exactly what the Taliban does in the Middle East. Was he right or wrong?, was the doctor right or wrong? Who am I to judge? only god can do that. Judge not and let me not be judged. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see god. This thread has gone from a innocent killing, to Pro-life(Anti-choice by my standards)vs. Pro-choice, right vs. left, religion vs. non-believers and now it seems to be a bit of racism at the polls. In any case right or left, or any of the above, my opinion is that extremism in any matter and the absence of trying to understand other can cause "Hatred". The man was on a crusade, to cause fear and to further his ideals. This is definitely a case of Terrorism. So the question begs to you, do you support terrorism or condemn the man that who committed this killing.
While there may be a myriad of reasons, it essentially boils down to three that are generally discussed: 1. Rape/incest 2. Physcial health of the mother 3. Birth control (this is where the "myraid" of reasons occur - psychological, monetary, inconveience, not ready to be a parent, etc.) The statistics related to abortion in these cases are roughly, 1% for rape/incest, 6% for physical health of the mother and 93% for birth control.
Your statistical breakdown, even if true, is a meaningless, arbitrary grouping based on nothing but your own prejudiced perspective on complex women's health issues.
So, instead of trying to create a paper ban on people who fall into the third category, why don't you and all of your pro-life brethren work to do things that actually reduce unplanned pregnancies. Those types of actions will reduce abortion numbers far more than any protest outside a clinic, court case, or legislation could.
Well, I'm done talking to you after this, as it really makes any of your previous commentary moot. You're a disturbed person, and a sorry, all-too-typical joke of a christian.
I think we agree this is a very heated topic giddyup has stayed consistently anti-abortion in this thread against some very good posters. Being exposed to many Christian views on abortion it is fair to ask you to understand how divided the Christian opinions really are on the fetus/baby in the womb. It is not unreasonable to understand that for many Christians the primary abortion bias centers around this; it is a fetus by terminology, but for many it is also a human child- yet unborn. It is this strong view of the mother carrying a live baby that often causes religious people to take very hard stances. Not all Christians view the unborn as viable but some feel very very strong about it. I don't think this is too unreasonable. Many Obstetricians and Gynecologists are very divided on abortion and yet they mostly charge money to help women take care, nuture and deliver the baby- alive. I have read about Obstetricians and Gynecologists who have turned from pro-choice to strongly pro-life; I have spoken to several on the issue of abortion. Some people, I assume giddyup being one, are strongly passionate about babies and see the protection of an unborn baby vitally fundemental to human dignity, rights and values. Some people like myself have watched many videos of unborn children ripped apart in a clinic by an abortion procedure. It is somehow a surreal, yet gruesome vision. Sometimes people respond to this issue without knowing what happens during the procedure. In my mind anti-abortion or pro-life does not justify a back ally abortion-- there are better solutions if we really want them. I haven't witnessed personally the awful suffering of a dangerous abortion, nor the death of a mother from such. I am sure I would be broken over that type of horror. Don't think for a second that all such unjust suffering like dangerous abortions are condoned in any way by someone who truly follows the teachings of Jesus. What we must realize is that there is something to work on... the law was once to ban all abortions and now it is basically abortion on demand. Instead of attacking each other for our views we can listen, think, ponder and respond in a positive and helpful way to the real needs we are discussing. I have made my share of insensitive remarks in here, I regret them all. For all the pro-choice posters I think you mean well and certainly have shown a deep respect for women and the difficult situations they face. Please don't think it is un-Christian or malicious to come so strong for an unborn baby. In the heat of discussion the mother is villified and extreme comments are made but that is just representative of how heated this is. I know many mothers who absolutely hate abortion and several of them have had one. But I don't get caught up with that, I try to guide toward solutions that work. I personally don't support any form of abortion protest. I know a better way to respond, it saves babies and gets more done in the government. I think giddyup has taken a harder stance than I want to in the D&D, but I respect him staying with all the discussion, if I understand he really strongly is convinced he is debating for an unborn baby, that is a living human being, with value, significance and purpose for this mixed up world. Anyone who doesn't love- be it a mother getting an abortion, a pro-choice supporter, a baby in the womb or a pro-life demostrator is not a Christian. That is all I really wanted to say. I regret this man claimed to be a Christian and then went out and brutally murdered someone. God is just.
... and some of those are reasonable. If you indeed read the thread, you would know that I'm not for a spectral ban on abortions.... but my tolerance of them would be very low.
So you are in effect saying that women are just waiting for abortion to be made illegal so that they can go out and get a back-alley abortion just so those statistical measure will go up? Sure.... My remark is introduced with a conditional "if." I'm not sure where you get your stats from since abortion has been largely de-criminalized for over 35 years. Ha!! You are the one who wanted to start a "Preventing Pregnancy" class and bus already pregnant ladies to it. I'm trying to get mothers to love their babies and you want to have a seminar.... I was sarcastically pointing out that you'd have to travel back in time to a time before they were pregnant to keep some of those babies from dying. Again, those are individual choices that are not inevitable. If one can, another can. I'm not even necessarily touting abstinance; I just know that it works. I'd love to know how many unwanted pregnancies are due to improper use of birth control... and then those pregnancies get blamed on faillure of birth control. I would guess that number is high. Of course, the irony is that that is the charge continually leveled against those who would protect the children.... so no I wouldn't stop.
I'm sorry but you just can't always protect people from their poor choices. I'm against making it easy for them to kill their baby because I think that will mean that fewer babies get killed. Since you're a doctor, would you write me a prescription for something...
