Christian Bumper Stickers

Sorry for picking on your quote, RichRocket. I actually rarely notice comments like that... but since there are so many 'wounded heroes' running aboooot, I thought that I could, well I thought that I had to point out that we all say things that someone's going to find offensive. I love communication, I love differences in opinion, I love the fact that we get to communicate these differences in opinion (now's where I post an American flag and we all tear up for a moment).

Anyway, I'm not offended by your faith. I'll occasionally agree w/ MadMax more so than you... merely b/c he tends to be the slightest bit more moderate. You... well, you remind me of my crazy family. That's not so bad.

As far as even noticing, or not noticing someone else's faith... I usually only pick up things that seem slightly eurocentric, or monoculturalistic when I'm concerned that some of my other peers might be offended.... i.e. muslim friends, gay friends, whatever. I could give a rat's arse about my own feelings or sentiments (99% of the time ). On the topic of religion, I'm too far gone to even give the subject its due. I only played the logic games when I was passionate about the subject, i.e. still making sure that I was correct (it is a big decision, eh?), or when I was young and had to worry with 'winning' arguments. Watching my grandfather die has somewhat changed my perspective on this matter. Since then, I've tried to keep my mouth shut (of course I fail constantly). That's a whhhhhole other topic though, and I haven't determined the best way to pay him respect yet (he had a penchant for arguing and a PhD in theology. Should I argue, to pay him respect? Would he be offended were I to tell him that many of his lessons on the Church only compounded my problems w/ faith? Anyway...)

Babble post #4700 complete.

 

I love how its up to me to play along.

You want to know what I think is a lost soul? Some poor kid who is raised in a condeming, hatefilled religion who never gets a chance to make a decision on his/her own regarding one of the most important things in life, his/her spirituality.

Yes, in my world view every human being is a repressed Christian until they accept Christ the Savior.

This quote here is enough to tell me everything I need to know about you. I hope someday you have the courage to open your mind to other possibilities, but if I was a betting man I'd lay everything I have on you not.

 

I'd suggest that alot of peoples problems with Christanity result from the fact that the majority of their contact seems to come from the most obnoxiously evangelical. Anybody else remember that bus that used to drive around downtown at lunchtime with the pictures of abortions on the side and loud bullhorns screaching about how everybody's going to hell? (It may still do it).

Sort of like the fact that those white supremicist idiots always seem to be the ones least fit to praise the genetics of anglo-saxons... (not that I'm equating the two.) It's unfortunate that this is the way it is. There are less obnoxious strains of Christianity, and from Rich Rocket I since a genuine kindness and thoughtfullness on the subject, which I feel bad that his thread has become the battleground.

Not all christians are the ones who assault you. I think the majority of christians seem to realise that evangelism seems to work better with those with whom they have an exitsing relationship.

And Max, regarding an earlier statement, I find it hard to believe that nobody in your church would be offended and outraged by gay materials being passed out out front. Just my opinion.

 

This one is a good one....

Jesus Saves !!!! But, Gretsky scores on the rebound !

And of course another all timer !!

God is DEAD !!
Signed Fred.

Fred is DEAD !!
Signed God.


DaDakota

 

The hardest thing I ever had to deal with in growing up as a Christian is the threat that my curiosity posed to Christians. When I began to explore Christian mysticism, most everyone I knew thought it was wierd and would cause me to lose my faith. When I decided to study other religions in pursuit of my own spiritual voice, I was met with incredible resistance from friends and family who thought I'd be losing my soul.

Today, I still cannot discuss my beliefs with family members because, according to some, it would be too hard on them. I have to hide my own beliefs because they are a threat to them. I've never really been able to figure out why.

The wisest religious followers I've ever read, met or heard are nearly always accepting of religious beliefs. I can't imagine Christians of the InterFaith Charities of Houston telling the Jews that they are going to hell. Not only would it be in poor taste, but it would be disrespectful to beliefs they have long held as sacred.

In my view, all beliefs have a sacred nature. They are also a part of a much more complex psychological and sociological makeup that is sometimes very difficult to see and understand.

I have never personally viewed Christianity as a threat to my spirituality, but I have known numerous Christians who viewed my spirituality as a threat to their faith. I also find it extremely disrespectful for people to try to convince me that I need to become a Christian even after I tell them "no thank you."

 

Sorry, for entering late. I've got some catching up to do (after reading the entire thread for the first time).

outlaw,

IMO, the best thing would to become a Christian, then talk to them about their own hypocracy

Of course, you could expose their hypocracy without becoming a Christian, but notice I said "best".

Well, I wouldn't have a problem with that if they did it to everyone, and didn't just single out one or two types of sinners. Because, everyone's a sinner, regardless of what that sin might be. And, just because someone's a Christian doesn't mean they're not a sinner.


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MadMax & RichRocket,

If it were you and it were a group of Satanists or Muslims (not making a connection there), or some other religion, and they were similarly tenacious.... would you just "move on" or "respectfully play along"?

That is ridiculous. Like another poster said, everyone also has a sexual aspect of their person.

I think the aspect of "teenagers" that bothers some is their lack of "life experience", but that they are trying to discuss something with someone who may have it.

It'd be like a 5-yr old trying to tell you how the Rockets should be doing things... You never know, he/she might be a genius, but you're likely to still similarly question their opinion.

I think Achebe got the connection, "I personally would think that outlaw would get tired of having patronizing arrogant little brats at the wise old age of 14 or so telling him how to live his life."

That and the violent aspect that outlaw brought up.

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boy,

I think one of the most common mistakes people make is to apply one set of standards for themselves (and those like them), and a completely different set of standards for those unlike themselves.

Apply what you just said to what outlaw said about going to a church to "share with others what (he) percieves as the truth"....

Actually, I agree with you (as long as they aren't doing it in a threatening manner), but then if I do, I must also see the validity in outlaw's statement, and hence agree with his (or someone else's) decision to actually do it.

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TheFreak,

They might have been.

I've always had strong Christian beliefs. I haven't always understood how homosexuality and Christianity can co-exist. Up until I solved (More correct: I allowed God to show me the solution to) that mystery, I thought "gay-bashing" was an acceptable thing. Thankfully, I never participated in it, but by my own Christian standards (and apparently yours), by just approving of it, I participated in it. Like in the Bible how is says if you think of a woman in an inappropriate way, you have commited a sin.

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CriscoKidd,

When you strip away all the extra preservatives and additives that man has applied to Christianity it isn't exactly like that.

There is only one requirement to being a "Christian", and that's believing in Christ. I cannot say whether one person (be they Christian or not) is going to Hell or not. It's not my place. There's only one Judge.

Also, because there is only one requirement, sin will not keep a person out of the Kingdom of Heaven. If that were so, nobody would be there, because we all sin.

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Ottomaton,

I think evangelism is better suited for some non-believers. But, like anything, must be presented in a non-threatening way.

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Jeff,

Along the same vein, I am still trying to both work up the courage and figure out how to gain access to speaking to groups of Christians on the subject of homosexuality and the extreme hypocracy rampant among Christians on the subject.

 

RichRocket,

I don't pretend to speak for Jeff, but it seems to me that he wanted to increase his knowledge of his beliefs, but was met with resistance from those within that faith.

If someone hands you a contract and asks you to sign it, but when you ask to read it, they become less than cooperative, you tend to get a little suspicious.

Yes, I understand that, but the battle is for your soul...... not your sexuality.

When Christians can treat homosexuality like any other sin, and not one of the "worst" ones, then their hypocracy will end (on that subject). Smoking, thinking sinful thoughts, homosexuality, lying, etc... When Christians start marching/protesting/etc against all sinners then, they will stop showing favoritism towards some sins and not towards others.

A large reason there is a "gay community", is because religous people have singled out homosexuals and ostracized gays from their societies. There's no "liars community", or "lustful community", or "greedy community", or "jealous community", because their sins are not singled out for persecution by other sinners.

Obviously, in fact, the idea of protesting every sin (instead of just "all" sin) is impossible. And, that's my point.

 

I'm happy that you think this Roxran, but I think it is misplaced. Most people in this BBS are spending their precious time here here because they are "deriving happiness and joy" from the Rockets. The fact that religion is the current topic of discussion is coincidental.

 

<B>Would it be fair to say that the reason the Gay Community seems to be "discriminated" against is because they aggressively want to promote their "sin" into legitimacy in a way that Liars and the Lusty do not</B>

I was under the impression that the majority of gay men and women simply wanted to be treated fairly and allowed to live their lives, as are the Liars and the Lusty.

<B>The other issue, of course, is that the Gay Community does not see their sexual preference as a "sin." </B>

Liars don't see their lying as a sin either.

Do you consider the "sinfulness" of a gay man who simply lives his life but does not promote his homosexuality the same, worse, or less than GW Bush, who as mentioned previously has lied to the public on several occasions regarding his past. (Someone that was heavily criticized for Clinton in dealing with Gennifer Flowers)

 

<b> Isn't the reason that your beliefs are a threat to your Christian family members because they represent, sorry to say it this way, the dark side? Christians believe that there is a spirital warfare going on for their souls. There is deception. Lucifer is the Shining One. We live in a world more concerned with temporal satisfactions than eternal ramifications.</b>

I'm not exactly sure how my spiritual beliefs represent temporal satisfactions. Have you ever sat in meditation for a long period of time? I can tell you that there is no great temporal satisfaction in how your legs and back feel.

As for my family being threatened by my belief in the "dark side" as you put it, how does that apply to those who don't know that I'm not a Christian? What about the one's who still believe I am the same born-again kid I was in high school?

Personally, I believe in education. If you want to save your soul, I believe you should learn why and how and make that decision for yourself. That means exploring every option openly and making a decision based on what your heart tells you. If your current faith resonates with you, learning about other faiths and spiritual practices should strenghten it even further. If not, than it probably wasn't for you.

On my family, I find the way they express many of their beliefs offensive. I won't bother going into how or why, just suffice it to say it makes me terribly uncomfortable. I accept it because I am in the minority, but I find it incredibly narrow-minded and uncaring of them to behave the way they do knowing it goes contrary to who I am.

It is one thing to witness to me if that's what they want to do. They don't. Rather, they choose methods of demeaning my beliefs knowing I will not choose to respond because I think it is wrong to engage that. As a result, I have separated myself from many of them to the point of seeing some close relatives only once a year, if that. They cannot understand why I won't just deal with it and I cannot understand why they refuse to respect who I am even as I do the same for them.

This is exactly the problem I had with so many of my Christian friends growing up. They spent their lives sitting in judgement of others for "sinfulness" when the very judgement they placed on others WAS sinful. You can imagine that it would be difficult for me to accept that.

 

<b>It is my tried and true belief (NOT A FACT) that not everything presented as a belief system is indeed legitimately spiritual.</b>

Ok, fair enough. Define "legitimately spiritual" in the context of how we live as humans. What exactly is legitimate to you and why?

<b>Those who don't know of your "evolved" faith are not threatened and not concerned, I would guess. Ignorance is bliss for them. Tell me.</b>

I do not consider my faith "evolved." That is your word. I consider my faith different. That's all.

Second, instead of judging me on my faith, they judge me on my opinions. If I think it is wrong for them to refer to a black man as a ****** (as my grandfather does nearly constantly), he considers me a liberal and godless like the other "heathens" (his word, not mine). If I mention a difference of opinion to one of my relatives, even if it has nothing to do with religion, they find a way to direct the conversation back to Christianity and how whatever it is that I think is wrong in the eyes of God. Dare I say that Jesus didn't support racism.

Probably the ugliest response I ever elicited was when I said that Jesus was an Arab after my grandfather and two of my uncles went on and on about sand ******s at a holidy dinner.

Finally, I am constantly criticized for everything from wearing my hair long to not eating meat. I never bring it up or attempt to discuss it. They just make fun of my hair (saying gay men would probably love me, etc - how little they know, eh outlaw?) and spend most of our meals discussing slaughterhouses (seriously) knowing that it makes me and my wife very uncomfortable.

I find this all to be terribly un-Christian behavior, yet they pray and sing hymns before family meals (seriously) and talk about how liberals are wrong in the eyes of God. Am I wrong to consider this inappropriate, hypocritical and un-Christian?

 

Just reading my own words, doesn't my family sound like a barrel of laughs??? I mean slaughterhouse talk, racial slurs and heavy-handed criticism, and they wonder why I try my best to avoid them. Oh, add to that the guilt they pour on when you do show up saying, "Well, since you never bother to come to our other get togethers..."

By the way, did I mention that my grandfather told my father about me and my wife at <i>my wedding</i> "it will never last."

Ah, family.

 

Jeff,



I'll loan you my family for a while if you like.


Ex-Roman Catholic priest - now gay
Husband and wife Episcopalian ministers - with lesbian daughter
Dad's an ex-drug dealer (60s), then Assembly of God minister, now neither.
Lesbian aunt
Another lesbian cousin
Black wife

I've never heard a racial slur in my life out of any of them. And, believe me, I notice more than the average bear.

Plus, they're all a little crazy... runs in the family.

I've always loved our family get-togethers.

 

RichRocket,

But, why were the kids outside a "gay" bar? Why weren't they outside a nursing home or a church for that matter, same amount of sin going on.....

My point was that no one should single out groups of people because of their "sin". If that's what is focused on, it will drive a vast majority of them away.

Of course non-Christian-gays want to be "legitimized", not by the church, but by society in general.

I don't think the Christian church should "legitimize" homosexuality any more than they legitimize other sins. But, what gets me is the attention paid to certain "sinners" and the lack of attention paid to others.

Why can't churches just treat sin as sin and not categorize it? Wouldn't Christianity seem much more inclusive, if it just said we are all sinners? No preacher pointing out people, no one feeling less of a Christian for their particular sin.....

But, there is only a "Gay Parade", because they are socially discriminated against and have been for so long. If liars were discriminated against, there probably would be a "Liars Pride Parade".

 

<b>It's really easier to identify spirituality that is NOT legitimate. The more you think about it, the more elusive it seems. The drug culture of the 60s claimed to be spiritual. I don't think it was. It was too destructive to be spiritual.</b>

I would agree with you here. Chemical altering of the brain is quite different from clearing the mind of all obstruction other than the divine which is essentially what all religion asks of its believers. You don't get clarity from LSD no matter what Timothy Leary said.

<b>In essence, I think there is one spiritual reality. The rest are just sytems for coping with the natural world. That's pretty blunt I know; don't hit me!

To tell if someone is "properly" connected, I think you have to listen to their language, look into their eyes, and observe their actions in life. </b>

These two statements taken together seem out of line with one another. You suggest that there is only one spiritual reality but that being properly connected requires a certain level of abject spirituality that manifests in the form of real or perceived characteristics.

By that logic, some of the most spiritual people were not Christians at all. Ghandi may have been the most highly evolved spiritualist of the last century. Traits that he had were most certainly shared by Mother Theresa and are currently shared by the Dahli Lama.

It would seem that, though they are not dedicated to spirituality directly through monastic life, people like Jimmy Carter are connected. There are many others I would think that could fit into that category as well.

I was raised to believe that those who practiced other religions were doing the work of Satan. It would seem you fall in line with those beliefs. I guess I've just never been able to reconcile the belief that Ghandi, a man of great peace, extrordinary tolerance and the greatest depths of compassion, lacked the spirituality necessary to qualify for legitimacy under those terms.

<b>RR: I don't exactly know what your faith is, but from what you said you come from a born-again Christian tradition on top of which you have explored other spiritualities. That is all I meant by evolved. How would you describe your faith? </b>

You know, I got that shortly after I wrote my post. I missed your point the first time, but my wife actually cleared it up. My bad.

<b>RR: BIZARRE !! God, no, you are not wrong! Your family sounds like it was conjured up by John Irving but rejected by his publishers as being too alienating.

I hope that's not what you think all Christians are like. I can't even imagine what that must be like to try and cozy up with those types.</b>

No, I don't. Unfortunately, I grew up not just around family members who were like that but an entire church and school. Sad but true.