Now we understand why the Chinese posters have the strange views that they do - they listen to only government propaganda.
Nope, I accused the CHinese gov't, but I correctly predicted that the Chinese posters would come running to their defense. You call that flame bait - I call it a prediction. I never said the Chinese people as a whole committed genocide. But the Chinese people who sit there and ignore the truth are making themselves complicit to some degree.
If you are stating that more Americans should stand up against, and recognize, wrong actions by our government I would absolutely agree although this happens in our country all the time. If this happens in China what is the result for those who stand up for what is right? Of course, if you are: Chinese Do not live in China And you still don't stand up against what is wrong what does that make you? Cheers, Brock
Brock, are you suggesting that peaceful opposition to a policy could land a Chinese citizen in jail? Is that Tianeman Square era thinking or 2006 China?
If you are Tibetan I assume you are also considered Chinese? Yes, that is what I am saying. Hell, this just happened in September: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/09/china14364.htm in addition to shutting down this lady's blog it goes on to say: ---------------------------------------------------- In recent years, the Chinese government and Communist party officials have moved aggressively to shut down websites, blogs, and other electronic forums that discuss what the government considers sensitive topics, using a sophisticated network of human and technological controls. Journalists, bloggers, webmasters, writers, and editors who sent news out of China or who even debated among themselves about Tibet, Taiwan, and human rights, among other subjects, have faced punishments ranging from sudden unemployment to long prison terms. In an August 2006 report, “Race to the Bottom,” Human Rights Watch extensively documented Chinese government censorship of the Internet (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/china0806/). ---------------------------------------------------- I am saying that if I were in Tibet saying what I've said in this site I would be sitting behind bars sharing some pasty meal with some monks who have probably been sitting there for a long time already. It's possibly that in "2006 China" I might just be kicked out of the country after being indefinately detained and searched without due process. Or possibly simply find myself unemployed. Welcome to the future...
I think your poor English is causing you some trouble in understanding my posts. When I say the way China is treating Tibet - China refers to the gov't. When I say I don't like the way the Chinese are treating the Tibetan, again, Chinese refers to the gov't. Most people here understand that. Apparently you do not. By the way - don't misquote me. You do yourself a disservice by doing that.
Nobody claims that human rights record is commendable in China. Nevertheless, it's improving, gradually but I consider it surly due to massive information available now. Free speech is one of the department Chinese government has to work on. The fact is, it's still written in the constitution that any attempt to advocate seperation is against the law. It's not a direct address at Tibet. Anyone advocates independance for Shanghai or Beijing will face jail time if not more. Do I support that? I don't. I think everything could be discussed, including seperation of any part of any country, as long as it's peaceful. But does that somehow/anyhow link to genocide of Tibetian as a people and as a culture? No, because it's the same law applying to every single Chinese. Chinese government doesn't want to talk to Dalai Lama. It's their choice, nothing evil about that. When PLA entered Tibet, Tibetians welcomed them, not with open love and flowers, but with acceptance. Dalai met with Mao and bunch of CCP leaders. It wasn't necessarily all warm and fuzzy, but definitely very peaceful. 2 years later, those "elite" serfs owners facing the crackdown of slavery, started a violent rebelling, and was stopped by PLA. They then kidnapped a 15-year-old kid, Dalai Lama, and fled China. What makes one think that CCP government would talk to Dalai Lama 50 years later, and about what? Personally, I would prefer they talk. But I don't see anything evil in the central government not to talk. At this time, Chinese government still consider anything suggestion for an equal talk between them and Dalai, a question over authority of Tibet. It's sensitive, but understandable. I hope nobody will be thrown into jail for any speech. However, even the democratic beacon - US doesn't allow pro-Al Quada speech, China still has a long long way to go. By saying that, it still doesn't warrant an accusation of genocide.
I agree that genocide is possibly a little strong for the situation in Tibet. Assimilation would probably be a better choice of words. "to render similar". That, in fact, is the reason for the train. Not only to have a way to transport out the mineral deposits in that part of China - but also to import in more Chinese people to the region. Even when it comes to choosing the Panchen Lama the Chinese cannot keep their hands off the process. They try to kill this peaceful "resistance" by kidnapping the chosen child at age six. In his place they offer who they say is the true Panchen Lama. This would be the equivalent, in the Christian religion, to a government saying "I'm sorry but Jesus Christ isn't the savior. It's actually Joe Smith here. Here you go. sorry for the mix up...". It's pretty rediculous. How can a government decide a foreign religion's leaders? It is one more attempt by the Chinese government to brainwash and intimidate their way into the ranks of the Buddhist religion so that they can rid themselves of the fear that these people might suddenly revolt against their occupation. And if they did revolt? Most likely they would be tossing flowers. Like I said, doesn't the Chinese government have some unarmed students they can go pick on. No... They have to beat up on some monks and nuns. While I understand the point you are making, comparing Al Qaida to Buddhist monks and nuns in Tibet is a little far fetched to me. One has a message of destruction and is actively trying to destroy the United States where the other just wants control of their own lives on their own land through peaceful opposition to forceful and brutal occupation. Regards, Brock
Not sure whether you are aware of the other half of that story. From the very beginning, central government decided to be hands-off on that event. Remember, there are Lamas in exil with Dalai; however, there are far more Lamas stayed. Those Lamas ran the Panchan Lama selection, exactly following the traditional and religious way. After the circle narrowed down to a few kids, after the exact same traditional and religious way, to let those kids pick out items used by previous Panchan Lama. The one who picked the most will be considered the closest to previous Panchan, and will be considered next one. All they were waiting for is the big day for the big ceremony, there is only pros for central government. They just wanted everything to go as smooth as possible. However, the interesting turn happens, one Lama closing to the circle, fled to India, and told the rest of Tibetian exils leaders who that kid was, and where he lives. Dalai came out and announced that kid as the point Panchan Lama from him, indicating it was some message he got from high being. Central government was left in a very bad situation. If they agree, that would make Dalai has the power to point the next Panchan Lama. If they disagree, they are violating religious freedom. The trivia point is, Dalai never had such power to point the next Panchan Lama to start with. Chinese government went with another kid who picked second most items related to previous Panchan Lama. A pure religious event was turned into a political game. It's really sad. It's even sadder, that it started with Dalai Lama playing a political game in such events, influenced by those other exil former slave owners. I guess he's regretting that as well. As for the accusation of attempts to kill that kid, you better back yourself up, instead of just quoting from exil former slave owners. Do you know that they back paddled number of Tibetian death from a couple of millions (which was more than whole Tibet population at the time), at least 5, 6 times to the current number? That's why there isn't a Western official estimated number, unlike in other history events. They were proven untrustworthy over the years. Western governments are distancing themselves as well. What did Bush say about "fool me once, ... fool me twice...", now, what if they fool you 5, 6, 7 times? BTW, I almost missed this quote: So in your justified view, non-Tibetan Chinese unarmed students lives worth less than Tibetan monks and nuns? Maybe my previous attempt of discussing matter in China was just a waste of time.
Not that it matters, but it wasn't clear to me either. I think China definitely refers to the government (as America would refer to "American" policy), but Chinese sounds as if its referring to the people, as Americans would. If you meant the Chinese Government, you did yourself a disservice phrasing it as you did. I have no opinion on the China/Tibetan debate, frankly because I know next to nothing about it (unless you count this thread and some Rage Against the Machine propaganda!).
if you say....what the Americans are doing in Iraq is totally wrong. No one will say you mean the people.
please post evidence to back up these claims concerning the Penchan Lama. At worst this is justification for the Chinese government's kidnapping of a six year old child and his family. I hate to say this, but the majority of the post you just made is complete bull****. The Dalai Lama has made the final selection of the Panchen Lama since the fifth Dalai Lama was in existence. At no time in history did an external government choose the Panchen Lama until the Chinese government decided to imprison the selected Panchen Lama and replace him with their own brainwashed version. It wasn't the first time a Panchen Lama was imprisoned by the Chinese government by the way. For you to sit here and defend these actions with defenses that have no basis in fact is rediculous. Give me some links. I think you are flat wrong... I think unarmed students lives and the monks and nuns are equally important - but apparently not so much to the Chinese government. If you want to start twisting words around to support some personal agenda I can certainly play that game as well.
well i guess that settles that - time to close the d&d down. way to generalize there dude. this is an internet message board - it is a forum to share ideas. sounds to me like you find it pretty useless in here. no one is forcing you to participate, so why are you here again? i guess it freaks some of us out to see someone shot and killed like a dog. why such a vigorous defense for these actions?? that is my question.
First off, not everyone is convinced what happened, as you claimed. Secondly, I don't have a big problem with others who have been consistent with their standard, whether Chinese are the victims or the accused. You, on the other hand, have a very unconsistent standard. When it is about Japanese denying war crimes, you say to chinese "shut up don't complane". When it is US bombing chinese embassy, you say to chinese "prove it is not an accident". Now when it is a chinese soldiers suspected shooting Tibetans, you say "I don't believe what they say even I have no evidence to prove otherwise." Didn't you say "innocent until proven guilty"? Just how do you prove it was not a human smuggling case, and the firing was not warranted? That is the reason I called you a hater.
First off, Tibetan lamas were illegitmate oppressive slavemasters. It'd be ironic to deny that when you accuse others of not being honest. Secondly, a lot of ancient countries were formed in the similar ways, somewhat coerced. Nowadays, what you heard about Tibet is mostly from tibetan exiles. I won't say that they are 100% lies, but they tend to exaggerate things. Just look at how honest those Iraqi exiles have been. Don't you realize these guys lie to get attentions and get sponsorship and hope one day they will get back to power? There is also misinformation given out in this thread. As I learned, the birth control policy was imposed most strictly on Han, the majority race of Chinese. Tibetans and other minority groups were allowed to have 2 kids when Hans were allowed no more than one. Also, Tibetans were admitted to colleges at lower requirement, etc. Are there conflict of interests between Tibetans and Hans? Of course. You have that whenever people from different cultures meet. Muslims and Hindus have the same problem in India. Muslims and Catholics have the same problem in Philipin. It is better to help work out the conflict, instead of faning the flame, as some of you guys do.
The point is you admit your government's wrongdoings without exagerating it to further crimes like genocide, but you are requesting the Chinese to not only acknowledge the government's mistakes on human rights but also admit your proposed crime of conspirated genocide over two men's incident. I acknowledged the Chinese government being a detractor of human rights against all Chinese, including the Tibetan Chinese. That doesn't mean the government has plans of genocide of any kind against the Tibetans. Following your logic, I would like to see you acknowledge the USA commited genocide in Panama, Nicaragua and Iraq.
If it were a human smuggling case, why not? The thing is so far there is no evidence to prove one way or the other. I don't have a problem with some people thinking the worst case. I just have problem with NewYorker doing it, because he has been doing the opposite when Chinese were victims. Chance is the soldiers were fairly sure those guys were human smugglers. It is not uncommon in Tibet.
