A lot of my responses have already been addressed but I will address this point directly. To a certain extent yes the current PRC government still bears some culpability regarding what happened during the GLF / CR as it is the same government as then. Saddam's regime is gone and there isn't a continuity between Saddam's regime and the current Iraqi government. This isn't the same situation in the PRC where the same CCCP is the same regime as was in the GLF/CR. To the CCCP's credit though they have greatly reformed but still benefit from the expansionists policies carried out by Mao and Chou En Lai. In regard to average Chinese I will even say that average Chinese does bear some culpability in regard to the GLF/CR and for the PRC's treatment of ethnic minorities. The GLF/CR was conceived and run by the leaders but it was a collective madness that could only happen with the voluntary participation of many many average Chinese. Obviously no single Chinese outside of the leadership deserves to be held primarily responsible but at the same time doesn't mean that there aren't tens of millions of average Chinese who voluntarily and even gleefully participated in the brutality and horror of the GLF / CR. Regarding the treatment of Tibetans and other ethnic minorities the average Chinese does have a Han superiority complex that they express though what I would term a Han man's burden that they justifiy treatment of ethnic minorities on the basis that they are helping them, providing economic development, lifting them up from feudalism. While Chinese might deny saying this Asia and not America such an attitude is no different than that of European colonialist who justified their control of other peoples as a White man's burden to civilize them. Also there is a widespread attitude bordering on paranoia regarding keeping China whole to the point that practically anything is justified and anyone who criticizes centralized control as being "traitors" and "splittests". As other posters have noted this is a prevailing sentiment even shared by pro-democracy demonstrators at Tianenmen. So the average Chinese isn't culpable interms of making policy but the culturally and morally superior attitude that the average Chinese feels in regard to ethnic minorities makes such policies possible. This statement pretty much sums up the average Chinese attitude and why it is problematic. While admitting that the PRC dictatorship is bad but that the theocracy in Tibet was bad implying a justification for lifting the Tibetans out of theocracy even at the costs of suffering under the PRC. Further the statement then goes on to make an attack on the Dalai Lama which if you know the history of the Dalai Lama is very unjustified. Consider that unlike many ethnic / nationalistic leaders in a conflict with a stronger occupying power the Dalai Lama has consistently spoken out against violence and as even agreed to the PRC's main demand that Tibet remain part of the PRC but be given autonomy to run its own cultural and religious affairs. This is a far cry from groups like Hamas who advocate violence and the outright destruction of the opposing power. The reason why the Dalai Lama and Tibetan independence is a cause celeb, as opposed to say the Uighar situation, is that the Dalai Lama has advocated a message of non-violence and compassion even to those he would have the most reason to despise. Its more the loss to the PRC that the Dalia Lama's offer hasn't been taken out of fear of seeing him as some sort of splittest figure. If the PRC accepted the Dalai Lama's offer pretty much all international crticism of the PRC would dissapear and the PRC would gain an enormous diplomatic leverage in world circles in regard to many issues where th PRC is currenly seen as less than an honest dealer.
Pilgrims is such a nice sounding word. I don't think anyone would be upset if they were called RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS!!!!!!
keep in mind though, that they are traversing thru the snow at very high altitudes. its not like they could run or even move fast and even if so, they had nowhere to run to. not saying its you because you always seem fair, but im quite suprised at the degree people will go to to defend the chinese government, who undeniably are extremely brutal and oppressive towards their people. i guess thats what ive been missing all along in these china threads.
then you dont read the d & d all that much. most good americans are appaled by what our government is doing to the iraqis. you are damn right you should. yes we should now what does all this have to do with the chinese government again?
absolutely it would - it wouldnt have made it past page 1. ask the chinese how restrictive google is over there.
stop calling chinese posters sensitive you are as sensitive as them everyone is sensitive because we al want to think that we are right and regarding the video yes of course its sad, I think everyone agrees with that But the any coverup by the US governemnt is just as bad as that of the Chinese COme on man havnt you watched any movies US invaded a sh*tloads of countries, killed a Sh8tloads of innocent civilians so I dont think you have to right to criticize another country or worse, posters (civilians of another country) come on I think we are all mature on this board things like this happen all the time, Shat happens Rawanda massacre?? now how many people died in that?? just live on and stop arguing
and that makes it ok then? you want to b**** about how stupid the US gov is? fine...I probably agree with you...but it still doesnt make other atrocities ok. you guys are so predictable....any story aboiut the PRC..yall immediately go into the US-gov-is-just-as-bad spinzone. what does that have to do with treatment of minority ethnic groups in China?. you arent really saying its no big deal cause other countries do similarly bad things are you?
Like I said, when it comes to China, critical thinking is not required. Heck, even just common sense or basic thinking is too much to ask; otherwise, one would be labeled as communist loyalist or genocide supporter. China thread is like a picnic, any ignorant people with an anti-commi chip on their shoulders can throw in any false, illogical, unreasonable and ridiculous garbage. Did CCP government do wrong in Tibet? Absolutely! Just like they did in every single province in China. Did CCP government hurt Tibetans culture during the GLF and CR? Absolutely! Just like they did to Han Chinese culture. Looking at some of the writing skills in Chinese news paper, I have to puke. The language and culture were demaged severely during those crazy years. However, did CCP commit genocide against Han Chinese and other Chinese? NO! Despite the fact that millions of Han Chinese starved during that crazy and terrible period, it wasn't a genocide against any Chinese, Han, Man, Menggu, or Tibet. Genocide is systematic ethnic cleansing. GLF and CR were Mao's signature move to aim at political opponents; however, he miscalculated severely or never thought about the overall damage to the Whole Chinese People and Whole Chinese Culture. It wasn't anything aiming at Tibetan Culture or Tibetan Chinese. How could anyone with rationale can accuse that of genocide? Let's look at some of the facts, which was repeated hundreds of times in this very board. Tibet population increased 600% over the last 50 years! How could one genocide achieve that?!!! The life expectancy under the holly spiritual leaders were 30 something, it increased to 60 something under the evil genociding commies. Before someone claim that the population increment was caused by "massive" Han Chinese migration, go get yourselves educated on Internet first, and get your data straight. In the beginning, the evil genocide Han Chinese went in to build railroads, just like those "chinaman" in the West in the land of unlimited possibility. They built hospitals, schools, and laid down infrastructures. In Tibet, where air was especially thin, and natural conditions extremely poor, so many evil genociding Han Chinese died in those building process. Tibetans are grateful to that. However, Tibetans were angry about CR where their culture was severely damaged, so did any average Chinese. Under the spiritual leaders, young Tibetans will die in their 30s. Tibetan serfs' skin was made drummers, and their bones were made long horns. Of course those self-claimed, civilized, democratic, freedom and culture preservers don't care about that, as long as they don't hear the word "communist". Some posters here are wondering why can’t some ethnical Chinese admit that CCP did something wrong in Tibet, after they claimed genocide due to a single still-under-investigation incident. I am wondering are they really that ignorant, or just simply spitting out hatred in this picnic thread? Of course, CCP did lots of things wrong in any part of China, including Tibet. That has been admitted by so many ethnical Chinese posters here on so many occasions. Are the posters question that, really interested about that? No, they just want to label Chinese as a whole as some inhumane commie animals. You got clowns to argue whether 10-30 millions of Chinese died in Sino-Japan war is indeed a lot, proportionally to whole population; the same clowns to argue whether those raped, fed to dogs, or used as biochemical weapons experiments were indeed terrible death; the same clowns would claim a shot down Tibetan who was fleeing out of country illegally and kept running after multiple warning shots were fired, as evidence of genocide. Is there really a debate going on here, or simply some pathetic provocation from some very twisted minds? Nothing wrong to question and criticize any policy of any government, that’s what any person with a clear mind should do. However, if anyone who comes in with a sole purpose to attack Chinese people as a whole, twisting and even making up “facts” to serve that main purpose, that’s really sad and disgrace of human decency. When people talk about Bosnia, Milosevic was blamed; when people talk about Iraq, Saddam was blamed; when people talk about Germany, Hitler or Nazis got the blame; when people talk about Russia, Stalin was blamed; however, whenever China comes into the picture, PRC as a whole country, and YOU CHINESE PEOPLE as a whole will be labeled. Of course, there is no hatred or bias, that’s just some simple innocent truth seeking. My A$$! Again, a bipolar passenger running away from a plane who got shot from the back, doesn’t equal to a deliberate genocide aiming at people with disabilities; a young male African American without a gun who was surrounded by dozens of police officers and got shot dozen times, doesn’t equal to a deliberate genocide aiming at African American; a poor Iraqi family who got rapped and killed brutally by several “liberating” US soldiers, doesn’t equal to genocide of Iraqi people. BUT, watch out, we are talking about China now. A shot down Tibetan who’s fleeing the country illegally didn’t stop after multiple warning shots, is evidence enough of genocide from CHINESE PEOPLE.
no way do i agree with the stance by China and i am australian I didnt say the US government is stupid, if anything, the australian government is stupider (yes i know there is no such word) All i said was that people in power cannot satisfy everyoe with the decisions they make, I am sure that although the majority of the people may disagree, most governemtns are trying to do the best they can (most developed countries) to balance thier interests with that of the people I am personally of the view that thier personal interest should be a non factor but we do not live in a perfect society, it is a factor and it is a huge one at that someone getting shot a thousand millino miles away shouldnt create so much negativity I am sure that as we speak someone in your vicinity is getting shot or killed People die - thats the way it is what i dont like is the calling out of people by both sides this discussion will achieve nothing because lets be realistic, no one is giong to convince anyone else otherwise chinese people are bought up in communisim and hence believes thats right americans are bought up in democrazy and hence belive that is right a few posts from each other is not going to change the way you think which has being indented into your mindset over the entire course of your life so why all the hate for such a trivial matter?? that is my question
NO MORE CHINESE FOOD FOR ME! NO MORE CHINESE SHOES FOR ME! NO MORE CHINESE CLOTHES FOR ME! And Hey, YAO MING SUCKS! And I'm going to divorce my chinese wife and I'll go back to Hongkong. On the second thought... never mind thsi is just another stupid thread.
US and it's stupid cold war policy has everything to do with the treatment of minority ethnic groups in China. Before CIA's intervention in 50s, the Chinese government and Tibetans were able to co-exist. When the CIA started arming rebels and polarizing the country, China had to rule the area with an iron fist to keep the region stable. China has indeed made many mistakes in the region, but this calamity probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the CIA.
Great post, real_egal! Many American posters on this board are too quick to label the Chinese posters as pro-PRC government, based on some heated arguments about sina-japanese and tibet issues. But unfortunately, they are not. They are pro-China, just like the americans are pro-US. Some of the posters are more informed about the issues that they are debating and some are pure ignorant. What irritating many chinese posters are those ignorant but self-righteous posts. Just imaging if someone picks a horrible story from a pro-Iraqi insurgent site and use it to accuse american occupation, what will be your reaction. Even you are anti-war, will you question its authenticity? If you raise any doubt, what will be your reaction if you are immediately labeled as pro-war? And if that same poster keeps on lumping all americans as pro-war, based on the pro-war posts from some american posters, what will be your reaction? Going back to the Tibet issue, if you read the posts carefully, most of them are not defending what the Chinese government or the Chinese, if you wish, has done and is still doing in Tibet. Personally, I even believe that the Tibetans have their right to be independent. The same applies to Taiwan, another hot issue in D&D. But it is true that Tibet was not a democratic, tranquil, and romantic heaven before the Chinese invasion. In fact, it was a brutal slavery society and the 1949 Chinese invasion did liberate them from the slavery. It is also true that the independent status of Tibet before the 1949 invasion remains a subject of academic debate. To me, Tibetan still have their right to be independent, regardless of these issues. But twisting the history to justify even a nobel course is still wrong and should be rebutted. It is also wrong to exaggerate the situation, as labeling a tragic wrong doing as genocide. Critical to these mis-information has nothing to do with pro-PRC.
what about the posters who are quick to label someone a Chinese hater? There is a story about an albino musician in Africa. Albinos were feared and shunned. He wore a hat. This hat had a mirror on the front.
That's not what most of the CHinese posters say, they make the dubious claim that Tibet has always been part of China, always and forever, even though history tells us otherwise.
Man, I've been trying real hard to stay out of this thread, but you've just made so many broad generalizations that I can't help myself. "chinese people are bought up in communisim and hence believes thats right" Believe it, or not, but many, many Chinese look at their political system as something they are stuck with, that's slowly being reformed, and something they don't agree with, but can do little about, except encourage gradual reform and stay out of trouble with the government. They see some good in parts of it, and a whole lot of bad, but compared to where their system once was are happy with the changes they see around them. I hope our Chinese friends here don't hammer me for saying that. "americans are bought up in democrazy and hence belive that is right" We were brought up in a democracy, but astute observers would note that it is an imperfect system. That it is under attack within our own country by the current party in power. That, if there isn't widespread voter fraud, the upcoming elections will swing the pendulum back towards the progressive democracy that the majority of Americans prefer, and away from the extremists currently in power, posing as "conservatives" and the defenders of "family values." That the minority currently in power in the GOP will be replaced by more moderate conservatives... conservatives that Republicans from decades past might actually recognize. I think it will take a huge political defeat for the reform of the Republican Party to take place, and I think that is going to happen, beginning this November. While your statement above (man, you need to work on your spelling) is largely true, it is misleading. Yes, Americans were brought up in a democracy. However, they certainly don't all agree that it is "right." That's why we have elections, and why the political landscape can and does change over time. It is swinging away from the jumbled mess of the current minority in the GOP that has a grab on power, and towards moderation and having a progressive government in power. That is the huge difference between our system of government, and the still evolving system in China, in my opinion. We in the United States can make "course corrections," through elections, to get the country back on track. The Chinese are faced with a much different and slower process of change. And things are changing there, as they are here... just in a far different way, and at a pace Americans wouldn't put up with, and don't have to because of the ability to have these elections. The Chinese have to work within the system that they have, until they can change it to a more representative form of government. I think they will get there. "so why all the hate for such a trivial matter?? that is my question" In my opinion, none of this is trivial. Not the crisis in this country, brought on by our current government. Not the on-going pace of reform, with it's setbacks, sure, but a positive progression, nonetheless, that is occurring in China. Not the situation for the Tibetan people in their struggle to retain an ancient culture, with all it's flaws, sure, but their own culture, which is in real danger of being swallowed up by the policies of the most populous nation on earth. Nope, I don't think these issues are trivial. Change is the one sure thing in this world. Change is occurring here, in the States, in China, and in Tibet, whether people like it, or not. The trick is to make the changes the least harmful they can be, and of benefit to those involved. Here, in China, and in Tibet. We'll see how that plays out. Frankly, I'm far more concerned about seeing positive change happen in my own country, than I am in China and Tibet. The upcoming election is of immense importance. (I hope that came out OK. I've been feeling like crap) Keep D&D Civil.
