I will have to get back to you after work. I do find it interesting that I can answer every one of your points on a bullet by bullet basis (and Panda's as well) yet I get accused of dodging questions when niether you, nor he, have answered a single question I have posed to you. Talk to you in a bit, Brock
^^ Speaking of those pictures, they are indeed very nice. However, I am a little confused about the captions. Is that an outrage that one Tibetan sees a store with Chinese sign in Tibet? Remember, Chinese is still the official language of PRC. That store could be owned by a Tibetan Chinese. Even if it's owned by Han Chinese, is that an outrage? What will be next? Shall we start to post pictures of a non-Asian American standing in Chinatown in NYC and wondering similar things?
It would have been much better that you provide that generalization false. But you didn't. So fall nice and tidy into the category of uninformed Americans. Sad but true. It's funny how with your strong argument that you are so keen on dodging the question. So let me break it down for you. In order to ask me that question, you must first PROVE: 1. Organ harvesting is taken place in Chinese prisons 2. It happens on a wide scale. In other words, it is government policy instead of just some rogue police warden. So do I support the government if they are harvesting organs? No. But considering that you can't even give a simple proof that it is happening, that question really is irrelevant. It's pretty funny how all your sources quote the exact same person. Might a person have an agenda? Shocking I know. So if they say they called a source, how would you verify it hmmmmm? I mean, obviously there never was cases of forged documents. Furthermore, them Canucks certainly are pro-China ain't they? Especially considering that they even call the Falun Gun a persecuted religious group whereas everybody with half a brain in China knows it as a cult. You chose to use the right words. YOU do accept them as facts. This means that they are NOT facts, that you chose to believe that they are. The fact that you even use the words benefit of the doubt implies that there IS doubt, which in its very nature means they are NOT facts. Which would also mean that they DON'T pass the sniff test. China's human rights record, no matter how good or bad, has NO BEARING on this particular accusation. If you have a psycho mass raper who had raped every girl in town except Jane Doe, it doesn't change the fact that he didn't rape Jane Doe, despite how likely YOU think he did it. And it's just hilarious that there are always people like you coming out to say "he did it, now prove me wrong." I let these go in your last thread? Know what you just did? You just outright lied. Which really gives proof of your objectivity now doesn't it? Force abortion does happen in China. That much is true. But the next time you are feeding 1.4 billion people, then we'll talk. Most people in China accept is a necessary evil. It's actually funny. If not for certain people who violate the law, there wouldn't be forced abortion. Public executions? That's an outright lie. China DOES NOT hold public executions. They do put in the papers that person xyz was executed yesterday for corruption, robbery or what have you, but ALL EXECUTIONS are held under police survaillence. The public DOES NOT get to see them. And as for organ harvesting, once again, YOU CHOSE to accept them. It still doesn't make it a fact. So it looks to me like you are 0 for 3. I'll tell you what's funny though. Even before a particular incident occurs, you are already pre-disposed to be anti-Chinese government. In other words, the incident really is irrelevant as your decision is already made. Yet you claim that you are unbiased? Don't make me laugh.
I don't think you understand the reality of what is happening in modern day Lhasa - it's not something as trivial as cutural bias about seeing chinese characters everywhere, it's about ethnic Chinese essentially relocating and displacing Tibetans wholesale and basically dominating the commerce of entire cities and regions . And while certain policies (2 children etc) make it seem like the Tibetans get an extra advantage --- the reality on the ground is totally different when it comes to getting licenses, permits, loans etc. for Ethnic tibetans as opposed to ethnic chinese, which is why they have become dominant so quickly (also by force of sheer numbers, they are now the majority) .
Funny from a sarcasm sense. But why don't you tell the real reason that you are "done" with me? The fact that you can't come up with a half-assed rebuttal without being ridiculed and humiliated.
I have to disagree. It was never a systematically planned operation to displace Tibetans. Most Tibetans are still living in Tibet. There is no displacing going on. However, are there more Han Chinese and other Chinese in Tibet now, than say 30 years ago? Of course yes. But it's market-driven self-intuitives from other Chinese, rather than government planned broad actions. In 50's and 60's, Han Chinese were sent to Tibet to build railroads, schools, and hospitals, including some I personally got to know later on. Were they there to destroy Tibet culture? I don't think so. Many lost lives there due to terrible living conditions, extended from Lama time. Those alive ones, were still 2nd class people, as long as you are Han Chinese. That's how screwed up Chinese policy regarding solidation among all ethnical groups. China is still not a country where one can move abroad as easily as it is in US. However, it's pretty easy to move between provinces if you do not request for social benefits from government. Those store owners simply saw business opportunity and moved there to make money. Does the traditional Tibet culture leave untouched during that process? Of course not, that's rather a conflict between modern society and traditional custom; it's not something protrayed by some, as culture genocide or root conflict between Tibetan Chinese and Han Chinese. I would like to beg to differ in this regards as well. When I was a student in Chinese university, as Han Chinese, we received least government benefit to all students. Any other 55 ethnical group Chinese gets more than Han Chinese. That's how the policy was, and still is. When you say dominating economies and other facts, we can take Shanghai as an example. The housing price in Shanghai skyrocketed in the past few years. No more average local residents can afford that any more. A new 2-bedroom apartment in a below average neighborhood in Shanghai costs about 200,000 US dollars! Average monthly salary in Shanghai is still much less than 300 US dollars. You certainly know there is 24x7 non-stop construction going on in Shanghai. Most new apartments were bought by oversea investors, oversea ethnical Chinese, people from Taiwan, HongKong, and rich people from all other provinces in China. Should some movement started to return those economic inbalance in favor of those original local residents? Scarborough, a white Canadian dominated county in Great Toronto Area 20 years ago, now become a ethnical Chinese and Indian dominated area. Should those original local residents start to drive Chinese and Indians out? That's part of the growth, and that's part of freedom. There will be things working in your way, but there are also things to your disadvantage. I would like to add a little bit more to the Tibet issue. CCP government did so many terrible things to Tibet people, but that doesn't change the fact that PRC as a country has authority over Tibet area. Tibetan Lamas did so many terrible things to Tibet people, during their ruling period. A promise that they will be softer than before doesn't grant them any rights to rule those Tibetan Chinese again. Do I like CCP? Certainly not. My grandfather (father's father) was forced to give up his business, his properties and belongings, he had to slap his own face in front of those workers to "repay for his guilty past". My other grandfather (mother's father) was forced to write a new self-critisism to dig into his evil mind every single day, and he almost committed suicide. My father had to give up his opportunity to go to a top university, instead, he was sent to some school in a remoted area. My mother had to give up her profession as a doctor in Shanghai, and was sent to country side to help farmers. The list goes on and on. Does that grant a nationalist coming back and returning to power? No. Despite all the terrible things Mao and CCP government did to Chinese people, it doesn't change the fact that PRC as a country has the authority over all its land, sea, and air. The government might change, but the country itself won't. Yes, I want free elction in China, and I want more freedom and democracy for Chinese people. Can we talk about human rights? Absolutely. Can we talk about mistreatment for Chinese in all parts of China, including Tibet? Sure. However, criticizing the government, policy, and exam past wrong doings or even crimes, doesn't grant a legitimate request from an outside group to take power to rule part of China and part of Chinese people, based on a promise that we won't make you slaves again. Personaly, I find Dalai Lama full of charisma, but that doesn't make him or his group a legitimate ruling party in Tibet. Speaking of track record, CCP has terrible record in Tibet, and also has some very positive records, as stated in numerous posts. What does Dalai's group have? A terrible record and a promise? One day, when China holds a free election, I hope Dalai Lama and all the other political leaders of any interest groups should go back to China, participate the election. China does need different voices to control whoever is in power, to protect and benefit its people, to preserve any culture of any ethnical group.
There have been many formal policies to resettle Chinese to Tibet, usually under the guise of "poverty reduction" plans. A few years ago the World Bank had to back out of a project that had planned to resettle 50,000 chinese farmers on tibetan grazing lands (though technically not in Tibet province, it was a border area of qinghai provicne that is traditionally tibetan) : http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf-asia/repro3/worldbankintibet.html That is only one of the official policies. While the Party has officially denied it, it is not a coincidence that many of the "temporary" cadres and lots of former soldiers were set up with jobs so that they would stay there and "civilize" the area once they left government service. There are also all sorts of other incentives (double pay, more vacation, low interest loans, etc) that have been developed to encourage chinese to settle there througout the 80's. The same is currently the plan in Xinjiang hence the "Go west" policy. All one has to do is go there and see, you simply cannot see the building of a giant chinese owned, chinese targeted hotel amidst a block of similar buildings and KTV joints in the middle of what used to be an old Tibetan quarter and say "there is no displacing going on". That's just impossible to deny and if you've been there you'd see it for yourself. The typical Tibetan town of any size now consists of a chinese dominated modern business sector and a small Tibetan quarter out on the fringes. These towns didn't just spring out of the iddle of nowhere because random groups of chinese got off the bus and started building stuff; there has been and continued to be a program to "develop" these areas and taht generally means one thing: development by and for ethnic chinese.
because you are a piece of trash who thinks forced abortions are justified. if that is your stance than obviously there isnt much that china could do that would offend you so there is no point discussing the matter any further. take care
You are proving my points that there is NO displacing of Tibetans going on, right? Yes, as I admitted there are lots of Han Chinese moving into Tibet. But Tibetans were not driven out of Tibet or forced to move to other provinces, weren't they? I can't understand your notion that the development of Tibet is only by and for ethnic Han Chinese. As far as I know, young Tibetan Chinese are participating in the building and developing process as well. The infrastructure in Tibet are for Chinese in Tibet, which includes Tibet Chinese and Han Chinese and many other ethincal Chinese, including you, Western toursits. Or, are you saying that Tibetan Chinese are denied the right to use water, electricity, railroad, school, hospital, and KTV?
Well I'm not talking about displaced as being kicked out of Tibet -- considering that China doesn't allow Tibetans to have passports or travel that would be pretty difficult. (though many do flee and go to India), I''m talking about displaced within Tibet, as being marginalized in their own homeland, both physically, economically and culturally I don't think that's a good thing.
I agree that with you to a certain degree, that it's not a good thing original local Tibetans being marginalized. On the one hand, I think the central government, especially local government (afterall, Tibetan Chinese overpowered and outnumbered Han Chinese in local government level), should do more to preserve this unique culture and tradition. On the other hand, that is a major problem all cross China. Kids nowadays don't know much about history and tradition, but they do know who Bill Gates is. There is not too much mentioning of Bill Gates gave up his fortune to good causes, but rather only focused on his title of "richest person on earth". That being said, I don't think it would be a fair solution or realistic one, to prevent other Chinese to live in Tibet. Just like you can't drive new comers out of Shanghai, New York, or Toronto.
^ BTW, are you sure that Chinese government doesn't allow Tibetans travel? As far as I know, every Chinese, except for registered criminals, can join those Europe, North America, Australia, or any other foreign countries travel groups, or apply for studying abroad, participating conferences etc. With a legal ID and some finacial gurrantee, every Chinese including Tibetan can apply for a passport. I am afraid you need to back up your claim.
It is very difficult/impossible for Tibetans to get passports, that is based on anectdotal evidence from Tibetans I have talked to (and if you search around, you will find websites that claim the same thing). The government is afraid that they will become dissidents and then import ideas back into Tibet, so it is easier to just not let them out. My friend for example, who went to school in India, was told taht he could no longer leave the country or else his parents would lose their job or be evicted.
Yep, and you support the torture of prisoners/civilians in Iraq and Gitmo. Funny how sanctimonious, ignorant, and hypocritical people like you are. Maybe ****ing get a clue before you saying anything?
Oh, by the way, Brockstrapper, you're harping on the fact that China takes away Tibet's resources. Then, what do you have to say about the White Europeans of the Eastern US (who BTW kicked the native Americans on the eastern seaboard too) moving over to the west and taking over all of the Native American resources, kicking them around, destroying their livelihood, killing them on occasion, and generally bashing them into the ground? The fact that it happened about 100-150 years ago does NOT change the fact that it happened. China has been in pretty much its current form for the past 600 years. The American takeover of the west is FAR MORE exploitative than ANY action China has committed in Tibet. Let's not forget that you are an AMERICAN, and that Americans have many sins and offenses to answer for.
QFT. This is not a straw man, Brockstrapper, because it's ACTUALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. It's equivalent to letting Saddam take over Iraq again because you guys ****ed it up so bad, except Tibet's current problems are not NEARLY as bad as the problems that you Americans have created in Iraq.
Except they never increase their pace even at the begining. Further one of the climbers said one of the Tibetans hid in the snow yet you don't see them try that. That is quite a bit of speculation that there is no way the video can authenticate. Not saying Romanian television would fake it but there's been plenty of incidents of even US television showing video that was faked.
