Don't dodge my point, my point is some of your sources is not credible by fabricating stories like Tibet includes other parts of China like Sichuan, Yunnan and Gansu. Secondly, are you opposing the action of the Chinese government building airports, railways, and hydroelectric stations in Tibet? Yes or no?
BTW, you must think the Chinese goverment is a credible source by looking up the stats from the Chinese government websites.
show me somewhere that I suggested that the Chinese government wasn't a credible source. I would think they would know what resources exist in their country.
It is you who is dodging the point. Both of my sources were Chinese sources in the post you quoted as fabrication. I guess it is you who believes the Chinese government isn't a credible source for information, not I. Since then I have posted numerous links from around the globe which all agree that Tibet is rich in resources (including large deposits of oil and gas). But keep dodging. Maybe some more innocent people need to be tortured, imprisoned or shot before you wake up. Regards, Brock
You are still dodging my point, the articles you posted in this thread suggested Tibet consisted of other parts of China such as the Sichuan, Yunnan and Gansu provinces, which is fabrication on the part of your source. In case you still dodge it, here is my post: "Brockstapper: All are dandy and well when your source make "Tibet" to include other parts of China such as the Sichuan, Gansu and Yunnan provinces. It's another example of geographical fabrication by enlarging Tibet to include the other parts of China, so that the movement of Han Chinese immigrants into other nearby provinces such as Sichuan, Gansu and Yunnan is counted as "OMG the Han Chinese immigrants are rushing in Tibet. Genocide! Planned assimilation!"" Keep dodging, you'd better dig a hole if you can't see the holes in your sources.
Didn't you support the claim from a famous/imfamous poster here, and showed open fondness, that anything could be dismissed from a "Chinese poster", and anything from Chinese government is propaganda? As someone claimed, we are really open-minded, so open-minded that we'll dismiss anything from "Chinese posters" or PRC. As Indian decendants, "we" are Americans, but as Chinese decendants, they are Chinese or Chinese posters. Welcome to America, chinaman. That's really funny. Or, you don't just simply dismiss any Chinese sources, rather ONLY Pro-PRC ones? It's funny the so-called Pro-Tibet source is reliable Chinese source now, after they played with death numbers so many times, that Western countries refused to use that as their "official" estimation, and just called a source. BTW, what's this so-called "Pro-Tibet" thing? Is that similar to so-called "Pro-life"ers sending thousands of soldiers to death, and killed (oops, or caused hundreds of thousands of collateral demage in other countries)? Should that be called pro-breaking-up-China or pro-overthrowing-current-Tibet-local-government instead? Which Tibet are you talking about? The non-existant-imaginary land which includes many other provinces? Among them, Sichuan, the most populated province in China? Chong Qing, just one of the cities in Sichuan province, counts for 30 million population alone, same as Canada. Are you claiming or your "reliable" source announced that also belongs to Tibet? Then, they need to hurry up, to play those death number a lot more, to make it fit together. The claim of rich in resources of THAT Tibet is as ridiculous as claiming that, despite rich in recourse in Rowanda (which includes the whole Middle East), Americans didn't go in, so they didn't went to Iraq for Oil. China isn't proud of its human rights record, that's a fact. Ethnical Chinese people are not proud of that record of CCP government either. However, maybe you should focus more on calling your congress men/women, urging those war-loving-pro-life Republican leaders and spineless-torture-supporting-pro-freedom Democrate leaders to stand up to your constitution and principle, to prevent "some more innocent people need to be tortured, or imprisoned before you wake up". After all, US is the democratic beacon in the world. It puzzles me greatly, how can someone keeps talking about China with a decisive and dismissive tone, without knowing the languge, does not have ANY chance to read anything about China from Chinese-language based information, from PRC, Taiwan, HongKong. Pro-PRC or Anti-PRC, pro-commi or anti-commi, that's all dismissed because of what? You don't know the language but you just decide to pick your Western sponsored, Tibet exils, previous slave owners, and child kidnappers (Dalai Lama was kidnapped when he was 15), as your sole reliable source? Have you read anything from Taiwan, to see how the anti-commi democratic Nationalists talk about Tibet? No? Why? Let me guess, because they somehow agree with PRC in some issues, therefore they are propaganda and as irreliable as "Chinese posters"? But hey, "we" are still so open-minded, but only to agreements.
^^ Regarding this thread: Here are some pictures of Tibetans that I had the chance to take this summer. I've taken the liberty to caption them. Talk to a Chinese person in Shanghai and you'll get a different opinion than a Chinese person in Beijing, or Chengdu, or Nanning. Talk to one of the ethnic minorities like the Naxi (or the Tibetans) and you'll get a really different opinion from the rah rah kind of stuff. Opinions that still remember wars with the Han and greater China that have uprooted their cultures. Is China divided? Sure is, underneath all the Party talk. And while I think that most of the opinions by the Chinese posters on here do represent a majority segment of China (with internet access) -- they don't speak for all -- and certainly not the ones that have little representation among the Han majority. Hey -- but then again, I'm a Tibetan tree-hugging kind of fellow (at least I am now, after reading this thread). What's a little shooting, a little cultural degradation, a little systemic curb of free speech and movement when compared against the glories of realpolitik and one country's self-esteem issues? <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jfisher/184652916/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://static.flickr.com/56/184652916_cf1b1e3575_m.jpg" width="183" height="240" alt="Shangri-La - Tibetan Grandmother" /></a> "Why do all the Han keep coming? I swear, soon, there won't be any Tibetan stuff left -- apart from our momos!" <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jfisher/184652115/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://static.flickr.com/71/184652115_e0834f2bdd_m.jpg" width="240" height="160" alt="Shangri-La - Monk" /></a> "Tibet schmibet. All that yak milk and goat hair? Pssh. Gimme a big mac - supersized!"
show me where this comes from. I post facts and you guys post unfounded accusations. focus on the topic instead of trying to defend the indefensible or direct the conversation into a completely irrelivant discussion about which regions the Chinese government includes in its Tibetan census. Regards, Brock
As I stated, my source was the Chinese government. In addition, this has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Not only is it not relevant, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Are you saying it is ok to kill people as long as geography is clear? I dont' get it. I posted plenty of sources. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this bit of information. What does this have to do with what we are discussing? Does this make the Chinese government right in this situation? And I am not dodging. This is your attempt to dodge the topic at hand, as well as the information I presented, by taking the topic on a tangent. I'll let you keep your personal agenda. It's not personal for me. If you want to discuss dodging here are a few examples on your part: I won't even comment on real's post. It is obvious he has me confused with someone else. Regards, Brock
Just to clear off several factual points. 1. The topic was about a shooting incident, which was hijacked in the 2nd reply, and turned into a "Chinese genocide onto Tibetans" accusation. Many posters come out to disagree about the genocide claim, this shooting incident-wise or historical-wise, including yourself. Is that indefensible or completely irrelivant? Yes, some posters questioned the video itself, including myself. I haven't seen any answer to those questions. Is that video irrelevant or questioning its credibility becoming "defending indefencible"? 2. Is the so-called facts from you about Chinese "harvest human organs from Fa-lung Gung practisioners", RELEVANT to this shooting incident or "Chinese genocide onto Tibetans" accusation? 3. Which part of the followings posted by myself and other posters is not FACT, but "unfounded accusations"? a. Tibet exils group was financially supported by Western countries. b. Tibet exils group was originated from previous slave owners fled from Tibet c. Tibet exils group kidnapped Dalai Lama when he was only 15, to make themselves "legit". d. Tibet exils group only fled from China, 2 years AFTER PRC control was accepted by all Lamas, and only AFTER the fact that those Tibetan serfs would be freed and they would no longer be slave owners. e. Tibet exils group back paddled the death number in Tibet so many times, from the original millions claim. g. Tibetan life expectancy was in 30's while under Lama ruling, and it almost doubled to current status. h. Tibetan serfs' skin were made drummers and bones were made horns for those "peaceful Tibetan buddist temples". What exact point was not fact rather unfounded accusation, what exact point is irrelevant to the topic and defending indefencibles?
I'm sorry, again you have the wrong person. Please quite attributing quotes or ideas to me that I have never said. Thanks, Brock
I take that back. And I am sorry that I really mistook you as someone else. I apologize. Let's scratch that point. However, I would still be interested to see your comment on the listed facts about Tibet exils group. I am interested in the views from their supporters. But I never really get an response, at least haven't got any, from numerous Tibet related threads in this very message board, during my short tenure here.
1) the thread has moved to Chinese actions in Tibet, what are they and are they justifiable. I'm not sure why you didn't get the memo. the topics you have mentioned are completely relevant. They relate to the topic we are discussing. 2) again, I don't know where you get this stuff. I never mentioned anything at all concerning this. The facts I have posted are just that, facts. Deny all you like. 3)a. Tibet exils group was financially supported by Western countries. yes, this is true. But in a minor way. It certainly doesn't make it right, but does not justify the actions of the Chinese government. b. Tibet exils group was originated from previous slave owners fled from Tibet Again, correct. There has been some good information here explaining how the Dalai Lama himself agrees that the old system needed to go. c. Tibet exils group kidnapped Dalai Lama when he was only 15, to make themselves "legit". The Dalai Lama has had a presence in Tibet since 1577. The invasion of China into Tibet preceded any resistance groups. This invasion, incidentally, is where the territorial divisions of Tibet were formed. The uprising was then born out of a reponse to forced public denunciation of respected Tibetan leaders and Lamas. Then the Chinese invaded in earnest to quell the uprising. d. Tibet exils group only fled from China, 2 years AFTER PRC control was accepted by all Lamas, and only AFTER the fact that those Tibetan serfs would be freed and they would no longer be slave owners. I'm not sure who you are calling the "Tibet Exiles Group". You mean the Tibetans? The Lamas? I've never heard of this group before. Please post some links to some more information. you had the "Great Leap Forward" in 1958. In 1959 Tibetans protected the Dalai Lama and thousands were killed by the Chinese army. Martial law is declared. The Dalai Lama flees to India followed by some 80,000 Tibetans (which I'm pretty sure were not kidnapping him). Following this Monasteries are closed, Tibetan leadership is eliminated Lamas are arrested, looting takes place and monks are pushed to the curb. The following numbers are the estimations for the period between 1950-1976 173,221 Tibetans die in prisons and labor camps 156,758 by execution 342,970 by starvation 432,705 in battles and conflicts 92,731 by torture 9,002 by suicide between 1959 and 1965 three resolutions concerning Tibet are passed by the U.N. General Assembly ‘Gravely concerned at…the violation of fundamental human rights of the Tibetan people…Solemnly renews its call for the cessation of practises which deprive the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and freedoms, including their right to self-determination.’ ( UN Doc.A/PV. 1084,19 Dec. 1961 ) Other wording thrown around at the time includes: Article 3; The right to life, liberty and security of person was violated by acts of murder, rape, and arbitrary imprisonment. Article 5; Torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment were inflicted on the Tibetans on a large scale. Article 18; Freedom of thought, conscience and religion were denied… The ICJ also concluded, in regard to genocide, that evidence pointed to: a) a prima facie case of acts contrary to Article 2 (a) and (c) of the Genocide Convention of 1948 and b) a prima facie case of a systematic intention by such acts and other acts to destroy in whole or in part the Tibetans as a separate nation… e. Tibet exils group back paddled the death number in Tibet so many times, from the original millions claim. ohhh, those evil Tibetans. How dare they! You mean it was only a million? This is your argument?!? g. Tibetan life expectancy was in 30's while under Lama ruling, and it almost doubled to current status. It wasn't for China to determine their future. Do you think cultures sit still? Don't you think that eventually the society would evolve medically and that life spans would have increased? So lifespan has increased under Chinese occupation. You believe this justifies the actions that were taken? h. Tibetan serfs' skin were made drummers and bones were made horns for those "peaceful Tibetan buddist temples". Sure they did. They also did many other horrible things to prison serfs. Those ended in 1959. Those actions are not justifiable, but certainly do not exclude the Chinese government from theirs. You should, when stating these facts, state all the facts. This particular act of taking a Tibetan prison serf's skin and bones and making drums was a once a year event. Not something that took place every day. It is also part of the "Old Tibet" and some of those practices needed to change. Regards, Brock
the fact that you go around throwing blanket generalizations on "americans" shows what kind of bigoted person you are. pathetic. i know others have made ignorant comments regarding perceived bad english by chinese posters, but i never have so you can save it. get over yourself. so do you think it is ok for the government to harvest organs from prisoners and sell them? im really curious - is the issue for you whether or not they are alive when they do it? do you support the chinese government doing this? if you found out that they were doing it from live prisoners would you still support the PRC? you brought up a bbc report which you said offered no proof. i submitted to you a 2 month study by a former canadian secretary of state and a human rights lawyer. it was an independent study, not done by any humanitarian group. they presented a 45 page report w/ 18 key areas of evidence. they have records of telephone converstaions where they are told that they have the organs and the prisoners are falon gong, so they are very healthy. B: Of course. We have all those who breathe and with heart beat. We have these. Up until now, for this year, we have more than 10 hearts, more than 10 such hearts. A: More than 10 of this kind of hearts? You meant live bodies? B: Yes, it’s so. On July 24, 2006, renowned human rights lawyer Dr. Terri Marsh officially delivered a criminal complaint on to the Massachusetts Prosecutor's Office during the first World Transplant Congress held in late July 2006 in Boston On July 24, 2006, Associate Director of the Program in Human Rights and Medicine in the University of Minnesota, Kirk C. Allison, PhD, MS released a statement on a forum held on the World Transplant Congress in Boston, confirming the Matas report and calling for academia and medical circles stop cooperation with CCP on organ transplantation i do accept them as facts. while an independent study, it is something that definately passes the "sniff test". based on china's "stellar" human rights record, i have a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this stuff. looking at the larger picture and how it relates to the topic at hand, what we have is a pattern of behavior with regard to china. the point of brining up stuff like organ harvesting, forced abortions and public executions is that when you see videos like the one posted, its not difficult to believe the chinese government doing this.
In short, a group of previous slave owners who fled China, announced openly: "We screwed up in Tibet, when it was under our ruling. People suffered greatly, and we did terrible things to them. Now, we PROMISE that we will treat them better, if you RETURN that ruling power to us. You MUST return that ruling power to us, because you also have done terrible things to Tibetans, although you also did numerous good things in Tibet, and Tibetan's lives are getting much much better than under us. Am I correct?
This is your view. I'm not sure what you want me to say: "Yes, you are correct that this is your opinion?" by the way, if you click on the photographs above it takes you to his flickr site where you can see tons more. Thanks!
Can I interprete your response as "dogging a question"? Let me rephrase, was that what the so-called "pro-Tibet" leaders are saying?
