You're obviously flamebaiting, but I'll bite. What do you have to say about American actions against the Native Americans? What do you have to say about the support of dictators during the Cold War? Oh, and even now, what do you have to say about the American troops randomly killing people in Iraq? If you're going to apply this standard to us, you'd better apply it to yourself, too. Get off your sanctimonious high-horse and come back down to reality.
let's make something clear: You: defending soldiers murdering refugees Us: not defending America for what it did to Native americans. get it?
no we only shoot and rape lil girls and innocent people.. whats going on in iraq or any war for that matter is just sickening.. do you know how many innocent civilians have died cause of this war? hmm what about all those soldiers that went crazy and shot a whole innocent family and raped the daughter.. . hmm the news here just refused to to cover all that or give it much coverage.. our govt is just as guilty as killing innocent people..
Well, having traveled around the world and getting to know people of every culture, I have a good sense of the level of cultural bias based on media. Americans and Europeans are generally the least biased people in the world. South Americans, Indians, Aussies even, are all really biased. Chinese are incredibly biased. Even Hawaiians for that matter. But I think a lot of the American posters here are pretty unbiased and open minded. I myself am very open-minded. For instance, I don't think Tibet was some uthopia before 1950. I also have heard the Chinese side many times. But the evidence against China is pretty incriminating. It's just amazing to me that the Chinese posters can't admit to the horrors of what has been done there. Truly shocking and sad.
ive already said in this thread that what we are doing in iraq is shameful and criminal. i can own up to when my own government is in the wrong. i can acknowledge that my government does very bad things around the world - we have overthrown democratically elected governments and installed brutal dictators who are friendly to our interests. that is wrong. it is also wrong what the chinese government is doing - they are one of the most brutal and oppressive regimes on the planet and you are too brainwashed to realize it. i apply one standard to all - its either right or its wrong. im not going to defend amercia when it does bad things, and i will call out other countries when they do. now, what the hell does any of that have to do with the topic at hand? if you want to start a thread on anything you brought up you are welcome to, although i guarantee you that there isnt anything new you could bring to the table. you obviously dont read the non-china threads in here or you would realize that many of us are very critical of what our government is doing. and im flamebaiting, but MFW wasnt w/ this comment?
i forgot - its good to have forced abortions, public executions and organ harvesting from live prisoners. where do i sign up! yeah for china!
it seems we've reached a stale mate. The Chinese posters will not admit to the wrong-doings of their gov't no matter what, and we can not accept that stance in light of the atrocities that have been commited. The wiping out of Tibetan culture and oppresion is justified in their minds by the wrongs America has done in the past. But little do they realize they are also justifying the Japanese shrine visits and what the Japanese did to them. Too bad. But I guess that's the end of the debate.
Forced slavery, inhumane execution and torture methods (They would gouge people's eyes or cut off people's limbs as punishment. Also buddhists don't believe in execution, so they cripple their victims and let them freeze to death in the cold), ridiculous taxes (tax for unemployment and things like that) which left many to die in starvation. IMO, it would be an injustice to revert Tibet back to their original government. I certainly don't want people to die in Tibet, but they had it very bad in Tibet before China re-occupied the state.
For the record, most chinese posters admit that China has indeed done wrong in the Tibet, but it's a clear consensus that we do not believe they commit genocide. If you're going to debate us, at least be truthful with your statements. Would you at least please be fair? Or do you have an anti-Chinese bias that's making you blind? In regards to Japan, how would the Jewish people feel if Germany decide to make a special day to commemorate Adolf Hitler? Japan committed countless inhumane atrocities in China, yet they do little to apologize for it. We have every right to be pissed off at Japan if they decide to commemorate the people that committed those heinous crimes.
I'l tell you what, I'll go one step further. I'm gonna come right out and call you a moron. But unfortunately, that is merely the statement of a fact instead of an insult. And yes, let's talk about the unbiased Americans here. The Chinese posters here, stemming from the fact that they are wasting their time posting on an English language board located in the US instead one in Chinese, located in China, probably have access to "information" outside of China. In fact, I would go one step further and say that they have either lived, or have lived in the US or another western country. This implies to do things: 1. They have or have had access to media other than of your so called Red Commie propaganda 2. Their English language skills are good enough to present a point and to understand and be understood by others An additional advantage they have is they actually know the history and culture of the region and in all likelihood, care more about events over there. You on the other hand, don't know jack about what goes on over there. You don't speak the language. You have not viewed the media outside of Xinhua, the official mouthpiece except in isolated incidents where you choose to "prove" yet again how terrible China is. And in such case, your are pre-disposed to be anti-China. Furthermore, you have not asked what Chinese citizens think, such as visiting a Chinese BBS, where bashing the government (rightfully or wrongly) is everybody's favourite hobby. Of course, the points above can be summarized into "they don't what they are talking about, you don't." Of course, whether they choose to acknowledge the truth is another matter. But at least by being informed, they have a chance to make the right decision, whereas you are making an uninformed decision, which by its very nature, is not only biased, but also ignorant. See how that goes? Of course, there are instances in which by dumb luck, you are right on a particular subject, but that doesn't change the fact that you made a biased and ignorant decision. So instead of being a moron, you are a moron that got lucky. Of course, it also doesn't help your cause that the west doesn't not have a history of backing up their allegations. They just make them. So perhaps they are trying to flood enough anti-China nonsense that an average ignorant American would say "wow, there is all this crap happening in China, it must be true." Which raises the question I wanted to ask. Which do you think is worse, the fact that there is no freedom of press in China... or the fact that Americans practise self-censorship? PS. By the way, I took the liberty to look up the definition of "genocide" on Merriam-Webster, just to prove how moronic your moronic assertions are: Main Entry: geno·cide Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId Function: noun : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group - geno·cid·al /"je-n&-'sI-d&l/ adjective Other instants not-withstanding, feel free to tell me how this particular incident is a proof of genocide, or prove alternative definitions at your little heart's desire. I have a feeling that you are not gonna respond to this point though.
I'm actually wondering when are you gonna provide proof of organ harvesting from live prisoners instead of mere accusations. Yes, I am aware of the BBC article, which not only does not provide proof, but is also pitifully pathetic. Furthermore, you'd think that if they are harvesting live prisoners, their families would be the first to know. Mind-boggling.
Living in Minnesota I've walked in deep snow so I have a fair sense of how fast one can move in deep snow. Its not a matter of them flying but its a matter of them maintaining their same pace even as members of their party are shot. While you might not be able to run you can certainly increase your rate especially if you're being shot at. You can scatter rather than continiuing to walk single file. If the snow is that deep you can also hide and according to the climbers one of the Tibetans did but in the video there is no sign of that. They just keep on going at the same pace single file. One other thing in the video though is that if you look you see they are following a trail not made by them as you can see it ahead of them. If that is a trail then they could've increased their pace. Even if that is so they could still minimize their chances by not walking single file while being shot it and natural human panic would likely cause people to scatter or hit the deck. Notice in video of shootings from Iraq Afghanistan and others war torn places the natural inclination of even people used to violence is to scatter, run or hit the deck when shots ring out. Even if it was on US TV doesn't make it legitimate. There have been plenty of questionable and even forged video footage that has been passed as news. Anyway as I noted the eyewitnesses seem to act oddly calm to in regard to the fact that they hid a fugitive from PRC troops who searched their camp. What does give credence is that PRC authorities are saying something happened although the stories different. While this incident might be everything you say it is the video itself does seem odd and and have many incongruities. This doesn't mean that the PRC has oppressed the Tibetans or committed attrocities in Tibet. All I'm questioning is this one video and the incident it paints.
First off I'm not from the PRC so I'm not defending my government, secondly if you notice that post is no way defending the PRC but is instead pointing out why the PRC's justification for invading Tibet is weak. What you are mistaking is my skepticism in regard to the video with a defense of the PRC. I believe what the PRC is doing in Tibet is wrong but I find the video odd and inconsistent in regard to how people would act in such a situation.
Tibetan independence or autonomy wouldn't mean Tibet reverts to pre 1950 government. The Dalai Lama has said he has no interest in seeing Tibet return to the old ways.
actually, just the "thanks for that" part was directed at you. the rest was just my take on things. I understand where you are coming from. Cheers, Brock
so you acknowledge that china harvests organs from prisoners, but the issue for you is whether or not they are alive when they do it? would it be ok for you if they were only harvesting from executed prisoners? it is enough of an issue that several countries and humanitarian groups are looking into it. im sure you will continue to believe what you want, but here you go... http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-5-8/41342.html Canada's former Secretary of State (Asia Pacific) David Kilgour and human rights lawyer David Matas have launched an investigation into allegations that the Chinese communist regime is extracting and selling the organs of thousands of live Falun Gong practitioners and then killing the victims. Chinese inside sources began coming forward in early March to reveal that live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners has been taking place since 2001 with the aid of hospitals in connection with Chinese authorities, including the Chinese military and police. According to Falun Dafa Association of Canada spokesperson Lucy Zhou, since 1999 when the persecution of Falun Gong began, the number of organ transplants in China has grown exponentially. Falun Gong is considered the "number-one enemy" of the communist regime, Zhou said. Hundreds of thousands of practitioners have been arrested and sentenced without legal procedure, and many remain missing while the families of many others receive only the ashes of their relatives who died in custody. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...06/organ_report060706/20060706?hub=TopStories Former Liberal MP David Kilgour and international human rights lawyer David Matas volunteered for a two-month investigation into the alleged organ harvesting of Chinese prisoners, and on Thursday presented their 45-page long report on the illegal practice. "The allegations are true ... harvesting is indeed happening," Matas said during the press conference. The report, which assessed 18 categories of evidence, found that organ harvesting of Falun Gong members began in 2000 and continues to this day in different parts of China. Kilgour and Matas conclude the majority of the organs came from Falun Gong prisoners, who didn't volunteer their organs. The report, which includes testimony from relatives of the surgeons, supports these charges. "The wife of one of the surgeons...said that what happens is he took the cornea and then other surgeons would take the heart, the liver and the kidneys and I think the pancreases as well," Kilgour said. According to the woman, her husband removed corneas out of approximately 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners all of whom would die as a result. Websites have even appeared soliciting foreigners who need transplants, promising organs in a week or two. "That can't happen unless you have a bank of live people who are waiting to die so that some other human being can have their kidney," he said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong_and_live_organ_harvesting The World Organization to Investigate the Persectution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG), an organization "initiated" by Falun Gong[1], providing evidence for organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners, have released recordings of telephone messages.[2] Transcription of a telephone message recorded by WOIPFG says: A: Hi. Is this Zhongguo Medical University’s Director Song? B: Yes, please speak... A: …..His doctor told him that the kidney is quite good because he practices gong(=qigong). Then asked which qigong? He said Falun gong. People know that when practising Falun Gong the health would be better. B: Of course. We have all those who breathe and with heart beat. We have these. Up until now, for this year, we have more than 10 hearts, more than 10 such hearts. A: More than 10 of this kind of hearts? You meant live bodies? B: Yes, it’s so. On July 6, 2006, David Kilgour, a former Liberal cabinet minister in Canada, and David Matas, an immigration lawyer[10], after two months of interviewing people in Canada, the United States, Europe and Australia, announced that they had found "credible evidence that the organs of Falun Gong adherents in China are being harvested for paid transplants." [11] [12][13][14] During the press conference on July 6, 2006, they presented their 69-page long report[15][16] [17]. In the report, phone transcripts were provided to Matas and Kilgour by World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong[15]. One transcript of their phone calls to Chinese doctors reads[15]: * Q: "How many Falun Gong suppliers under the age of 40 do you have? * A: "Quite a few." * Q: "It (the organ) was from healthy Falun Gong practitioners?" * A: "Correct, we would choose the good ones because we ensure the quality in our operation." * Q: "You choose the organs yourself?" * A: "Correct." Another transcript of their phone calls to a Mr. Li in the Mishan City Detention Center in Heilongjiang province reads [18][19]: "Do you have Falun Gong organ suppliers?" "We used to have, yes." "What about now?" "Yes." The report supports the allegations of China's harvesting organs from live Falun Gong practitioners and calls for international concerns[23][24][25][26] [27]"Believe me, I used to be a prosecutor. I knew there would be cynicism and I did my utmost to make sure that everything was satisfactorily and properly and ethically done," Kilgour said. "Our findings are shocking. To us, this is a form of evil we have yet to see on this planet," Matas said the live organ harvesting practice amounted to a crime against humanity.[18] On July 20, 2006, two members of the Canadian independent investigation team, David Kilgour and David Matas, held a press conference at the National Press Club. They announced their two-month investigation into allegations of the CCP's organ removal from Falun Gong practitioners and answered questions from participants. Their independent investigation verifies the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) atrocities of organ removal from living practitioners and caught the attention of the international community and media. [28] On July 24, 2006, renowned human rights lawyer Dr. Terri Marsh officially delivered a criminal complaint on to the Massachusetts Prosecutor's Office during the first World Transplant Congress held in late July 2006 in Boston[29] . This is the first international human rights lawsuit that Falun Gong has lodged regarding the atrocities related to live organ harvesting. The defendants in the criminal complaint are the visiting president of Tongji Hospital Transplantation Research Institute in Wuhan City, Chen Zhonghua, and the dean of Zhongshan Hospital Organ Transplantation Center in Shanghai, Zhu Tongyu. They stand accused of violating the United States' "Torture Criminal Statute" (Title 18 USCA Section2340A) and "Torture Convention" approved and implemented by the United States in 1994. [30] On July 24, 2006, Associate Director of the Program in Human Rights and Medicine in the University of Minnesota, Kirk C. Allison, PhD, MS released a statement on a forum held on the World Transplant Congress in Boston, confirming the Matas report and calling for academia and medical circles stop cooperation with CCP on organ transplantation [31]. On July 26, 2006, a third Chinese doctor, the director of Tianjin Oriental Organ Transplant Center, Shen, Zhongyang, was sued with crime of torture. All the defendants were charged mainly because doctors in the hospitals where they are directors admitted in recorded telephone conversation that the sources of the hospitals' organ transplants include Falun Gong practitioners.[32] According to South China Morning Post news on 9 August 2006, Harry Wu of DC dissident group China Information Center and Laogai Research Foundation questioned the feasibility of the claims. He said a total of 4,500 victims "would mean 1,500 persons per year, or at least 120 persons per month whose organs were removed". [33]. "This would be impossible to accomplish in an environment such as Sujiatun," he said. "China takes organs from many executed prisoners every year, but to kill 4,000 or 5,000 people, I don't think so. Professional doctors would not do this." He also cast doubt on claims that a doctor removed corneas from 2,000 followers in less than two years. David Matas, an international human rights lawyer who co-authored an independent report which supports the Falun Gong claims, countered Mr Wu's argument that it would be impossible to remove the corneas from 2,000 people in such a short time span. "The process of removing the eyes takes only 20 minutes," he said, adding that one surgeon could remove the corneas from 2,000 bodies in just 83 days. He said further that he and co-author David Kilgour had obtained more information since their first report came out last month that would be incorporated into a new report next month. On August 14, 2006, US National Kidney Foundation released a statement expressing their concerns in response to the "Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Practitioners in China" by Kilgour and Matas. [34]. In an interview by Australian Broadcasting Corporation on on August 15, 2006, David Kilgour defended the claims of living organ harvesting.[35]. Regarding Mr. Harry Wu's saying, Kilgour said: "Well, everything that Harry has said - and believe me I have gone over this very carefully with him and I have great respect for Harry Wu. Everything that Harry is talking about happened after March the 9th, when, basically, the whistle was blown by two individuals. We're talking about things that happened before March the 9th and that's really the fundamental difference between them. But the reality is that her husband, over a 2-year period, told her - until he refused to do it anymore - that he had taken corneas from 2,000 - approximately 2,000 human beings. People say you can't do that many operations, but as we've discovered, you can take corneas out of a person's body in about 20 minutes. As somebody worked it out for us, he could have done this in about 83 days, working very hard for 83 days. So to suggest that he couldn't have done it in a 2-year period is not true." http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/07/06/china-falungong.html China is harvesting organs from live Falun Gong prisoners without consent and destroying their remains, says a report from a former Liberal MP and a Canadian human rights lawyer. Matas and Kilgour said they, along with an independent translator, listened to telephone recordings made by the CIPFG to Chinese hospitals, prisons and transplant centres. In the phone calls, transcripts of which are provided in the report, organs from alleged Falun Gong prisoners are promised to prospective buyers within as little as a week. The report quotes an organ price list on a website for a transplant centre in Shenyang City, which offers corneas for $30,000 US, kidneys for $62,000 US, livers for $130,000 US and lungs for up to $170,000 US. According to figures from Chinese government departments, the number of liver transplant centres in China jumped from 22 in 1999 to 500 in 2006, while the number of liver transplant operations increased from 135 to 4,000 during that same period. Kilgour pointed to an interview with the ex-wife of a Chinese surgeon who allegedly removed the corneas from 2,000 euthanized Falun Gong prisoners over a two-year period. All died and their bodies were burned, said the woman, who was not identified. "There's enough evidence here to take these allegations seriously," said Matas. "It's a crime against humanity. It's very simple."
I haven't acknowledged anything. It's funny how Americans say Chinese posters here have bad English. Yours is far worse... at least as far as reading comprehension goes. What I am doing is challenging you to back up your assertions. Not good enough. It is those humanitarian groups that are making the allegation. The burden of proof is ON THEM, NOT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. In fact, those humanitarian groups are just one more classic example of how western groups make plenty of accusations without any evidence to back them up. If you want to accept them as facts, that is entirely up to you. But your criteria wouldn't even pass a sniff test. I would have brought up how calleous an organization Falun Gun is, however, what's the point, you will just believe what your little mind wants to believe. Not to mention that is another subject all together. So what I am gonna do is simply ask the question why you chose to select claims and accusations from an anti-China organization, in which non sense of objectivity is maintained. Furthermore, in respect to my bolded portion, I'm wondering why you provided more ACCUSATIONS instead of PROOF, which is what I asked you for. So in summary, you provided nothing of substance with respect to your accusations. You just made more of them, accepting them as facts.