From China's perspective, it is better this way than having a pro-india or pro-US government in Tibet. Just like JFK didn't like Cuba to become a Russian military base. You guard your backyard and allow nobody to invade it.
I've had an incredibly busy day and haven't had a chance to check on this thread and am still skimming through it since my last post this morning so pardon me if this has been responded too but I did want to respond to this posts since it cites me. For the record yes I do have a mostly Western education but also studied for awhile in Asia. Also many in my family don't share my views along with many Chinese who have grown up or been educated in the US. While being educated in the US might give someone a slightly different perspective it doesn't mean that one will automatically have a different POV. Also while they are certainly a very small minority there are many Chinese in the US, around the world and even in the PRC who have a different opinion on Tibet than the stereotypical opinion you are applying to Chinese posters. But this attitude would mean that no one can criticize anyone. The Chinese posters are right then that its hypocritical for Americans to criticize the PRC on Tibet when the US has practiced genocide on Native Americans. Yes there is such a thing as moral relativity but not to the point that its impossible to call anything wrong. I feel what the PRC has and is doing to Tibet is wrong that still doesn't mean that the Japanese shouldn't own up to their own past rather than distort or celbrate it. For someone who has argued about the importance of taking controversial stands this is a very odd attitude. Well everyone else says you're wrong so maybe you should agree. I don't agree with Real-Egal and others regarding Tibet but just because everyone else on the BBS doesn't agree with them doesn't disqualify their opinion. Anymore than if you were posting on a Chinese BBS would disqualify your opinion.
Better to be a "slave" then to be dead in my opinion, but i guess the Chinese gov't on what liberation means is liberation from having to life out the rest of your life. So I guess you're saying that China can commit genocide for another 50-100 years. Anyway, keep trying to compare yourself to other countries as a means to defend the wiping out of Tibet. Congratulations. You've just said it's ok to kill people for no reason except for political purposes.
You have zero evidence that the U.S. bombed the embassy intentionally. Here is eye-witness accounts, plus a video, plus a long history of oppression. Children under arrest? How do you excuse that?
Chinese media IS propaganda. It's gov't controlled media - so it will never criticize the gov't. The Chinese media is the government - so how can you trust it at all?
How do you get this human smuggling? It's a total invention by you on this board with no source. DUDE - why not just say aliens were behind it????
The U.S. has not killed 600,000 Iraqi civilians. You know that. The U.S.'s misguided goal was to establish a democracy there - but militants and terrorists have successfully debunked that. Iraqis are killing Iraqis. It's not the same as Chinese killing Tibetians.
What does the Tibetans have anything to do with your attitude and delivery of your POV? Would you also like to sternly reprimand the Chinese for keeping their females down and not being aggressive enough in the paint? Whatever your opinions may be, your attitude comes through as one who thinks himself above Chinese opinions and thinking. You sound so certain about your analysis of the whole CHina thing that it makes your signature quote look either misguided or hypocritical. And believe me, you do have some very valid points, but your delivery of them is like how the KKK has some valid points about minorities (and no i'm not comparing u to them, it's only used as example). Anyway, if you're going to be the defender of the Tibetan culture and its restoration to pre-Commies, find out exaclty what that culture entailed. It isn't all meditating and grabbing pebbles from blind kung fu masters. I don't blame you for it though. The Western Media has never shed much light on this. I didnt know bout it till a few hours ago. http://voyage.typepad.com/china/2005/10/dalai_lama_and_.html
Well each and every Chinese poster (I don't know what else to call them as a group) have defended China's policy in Tibet. Now...theres a big difference between a Chinese American who grew up in the states and one who came here to study and then naturalized. Personally, I don't have a problem with someone being upset with the shrine visit - so long as they can condemn what happens in Tibet. Look you either stand against genocide or you don't. You don't say the Japanese genocide was wrong, but the Chinese one is ok. That's what I'm trying to say here. Did the U.S. commite genocide against the native americans? Absolutely - there's evidence that we actually wanted to wipe them out. I don't deny it - it's the darkest spot of American history. And it's one reason why we as Americans take a strong stance against any group that tries to wipe out another. If we had a film of a Japanese soldier shooting off Chinese refugees or pilgrams, these guys would be flipping out. And the rest of us would be like "Now that's some messed up sh$t". But now when you see Chinese soldiers clearly just picking off helpless people wide out in the open with no where to take cover - it's just cruel and evil. I mean, that video is harrowing. You even heard those climbers and how shocked and horrified they were. And yet somehow the posters here can not condemn it - and try to rationalize it away? Smugglers? Border-breachers? Spies? Hey, that's how the Germans justified the killings of Jews. So let me ask you something - you preach a lot about fighting racism and the slippery slope to the dark side of things....why not speak out now against these soldiers? They shot someone from long-range. How on earth can that ever be necessary? God - everyone here can see that....except you guys? Is this just some defensive reflect - or is it just true denial at what has happened? I mean, i find it absolutely unbelievable. I'm not sure what is more shocking - what I actually saw on that video - or the response of people like canoner or real-egal. Seriously, it's depressing to see them react that way, I really lose faith in humanity when you see people justifying or excusing such horrific acts such as this. You bet it makes me mad!
I've gotten through the threa and just wanted to make a few comments. An argument against paying reparations to African Americans in regards to slavery is that African Americans are so much better off than if they had stayed in Africa. African Americans have better health, more wealth and a far far far better standard of living. In fact there are some who even say that African Americans owe white America for getting them out of the hell that is Africa. Its undeniable that African Americans have a better standard of living than Africans but does that justify slavery? This argument though is largely the same argument that the Chinese give in regard to Tibet. That the Tibetans lived under feudal serfdom and had a far lower standard of life than now. While that is certainly a fact that doesn't justify an occupation by another people's and subjugation of their culture. For one they were forced to deal with the horror of the GLF/CR but beyond that it wasn't the Tibetans' choice to be ruled from Beijing or be industrialized. Self-determination and nationalism are important for a people and noone likes to have something imposed on them even if it is benign. Think about it this way. If aliens came to earth and said that we will guarentee that the next generation of humans will have a vastly improved way of life but in return we are going to control your government settle your land and interfere in your religious practices would you accept that? I doubt that many humans would accept that especially Chinese who are very nationalistic and senstive about such talk since it was the Chinese who were hearing such things at the turn of the 20th C. from European colonial powers and the Japanese. At the same time though Chinese believe that they have done the Tibetans a favor. This was a favor that the Tibetans never asked for and one that has come at a high price. Also it might surprise many that the Dalai Lama himself has said that Tibet had many problems and that the loss of the old ways are a good thing. Far from the anti-Chinese ogre that the PRC has tried to portray him has he recognizes that the PRC has improved the, physical, quality of life and in Tibet and has even said that without the invasion Tibet and himself would not have been exposed to the World. The Dalai Lama has said that he doesn't want to see a return to the old ways but what he is asking for is to allow the Tibetans free practice of their religion and culture. Everyone especially the Dalai Lama recognizes that history cannot be changed but what matters now is that Tibet and the Tibetans be granted an opportunity at self-determination and to run their own religion and culture. IMO the only thing keeping that is a stubborn frankly paranoid view on the part of the PRC to even talk to the Dalai Lama. A few more thoughts. Many of those arguing the PRC position have claimed as Chinese to know more about the situation since they are Chinese while down playing the claims of the Tibetan exiles who they claim don't know what's going on in Tibet. I've had the opportunity to talk to Tibetan exiles after they had relatively recently left Tibet, including some who I could only talk to in Mandarin as they hadn't learned English yet. They've largely supported the view of widespread and lingering discontent with Beijing rule and also that their culture and demographics is being undermined by the waves of Han Chinese settling in there. Further while I won't deny they do harbor a bias (and not without good reason) I find it disingenuous that Han Chinese and especially a Han Chinese living far away in the Eastern part of China consider themselves to be unbiased and know more about what's going on in Tibet than Tibetans themselves.
I'm not saying Tibetian culture was perfect prior to China's invasion of Tibet...but at least it existed. Look, if you start to tolerate and excuse the indiscriminate killings like we see in this video - then you're taking a really morally deprived stance. One can never justify anything like this. It doesn't matter who the victim is. Did I ever justify what Japan did to China? No, I never did, I think it was horrendous. I don't make excuses...well, Japan needed to perform some experiments, and ya knowk, the Geneva Conventions didn't exist back then. C'mon....let's put things on an equal playing field. Why don't you explain how it's ok for soldiers to shoot pilgrims and then we can talk.
Maybe its because I approach things with an open mind and don't jump to conclusions. I've cited why I find that particular video questionable. I haven't denied that it may have happened exactly as you say but it doesn't seem so cut and dried. As you seem to have noticed though that doesn't mean I don't also believe what the PRC has done and is continuing to do is wrong.
Very valid point Sishir. When you put it that way it almost sounds like the Iraqi war, but i wont go near that I think the natives of Hawaii might also have similar feelings, not that I would know, but if i remember correctly, it's pretty much what happened to them as well when their queen got overthrown. Seems to me that countries have been using the "build a better life for you" excuse for a while now to justify their own actions.
I refer you to my first post in thsi thread. You're not exactly helping to overcome the loud know-it-all bleeding heart liberal stereotype. Just be glad I went to school with peple far worse than you and was sitll able to get along with them as long as we avoided politics altogether.
What is scary is how long has this been going on for? I mean, the video clearly shows soldiers firing upon the trail of Tibetans moving up the mountain, and one falling. Clearly they were shot at long range as well. This is a very shocking and incriminating video - and I think many posters beside myself here are quite upset at seeing that. Now - there are some people who said bin laden may be innocent - we need more info...but c'mon, are you suggesting the video was doctored and the eye-witness accounts are phony?
If they were indeed pilgrims, then yeah, the soldiers did a bad thing. So far, there isn't enough facts to establish that they are indeed prilgrims. Second of all, does the shooting of a pilgrim equate to genocide?
China is MUM on this - and remember - this wasn't some amatuer - it was Romanian TV! I guess those Romanians really have it in for China????? China mum on film showing troops killing refugee http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ch...killing-refugee/2006/10/17/1160850930201.html China has refused to comment about video footage showing Chinese troops killing an unarmed Tibetan who was fleeing into Nepal, after earlier insisting the action was in self-defence. "The competent authorities have already released information, I have no further information for you as a spokesperson of the foreign ministry," Liu Jianchao told journalists at a regular briefing. China's official Xinhua news agency admitted on Thursday of last week that its soldiers killed one person and injured another near Mount Everest, but said they were acting in self-defence. Xinhua said the soldiers tried to persuade the group to go back home "but the stowaways refused and attacked the soldiers". But a Romanian TV station on Saturday released a video that it said showed Chinese troops shooting the two unarmed Tibetan refugees as they fled. The two were among a group of around 70 Tibetans trying to flee into Nepal. The video footage from Pro TV's website depicts a line of Tibetans walking through the snow on the Nangpa La Pass when a shot is heard and one person in the group falls to the ground. A narrator says the Romanian cameraman who witnessed the incident was one km away from the Tibetans when the shooting occurred. "Everybody can see a Chinese soldier standing in the shooting position, he opens fire, the bullets hit human flesh, Tibetans fall to the ground, one of them seems to escape the bullet but is hit by a second round," the narrator says. "I don't know what right the Chinese think they have to do things like this ... there is no need to kill," one unidentified climber told Pro TV. A US-based rights group, the International Campaign for Tibet, identified the person who died as 25-year-old Tibetan nun Kelsang Namtso. The United States has lodged an official protest to China over the incident. The footage, when aired inside China to the mainly foreign business and residential buildings that have access to CNN, was repeatedly blacked out by China's censors today. It received no mention in the domestic, state controlled press. China has ruled Tibet since it sent in the military to "liberate" the Himalayan region in 1950. International rights groups accuse the Chinese of ruling Tibet through repression and military intimidation. AFP
I dont think we should downplay or overplay the incident. Clearly this fits neatly into the stories the Western media has been reporting about the treatment of Tibetans by the PLA. Also, the people who got shot were obviously innocent and I can't see ANY justification at all for shooting them. On the other hand, saying that this is genocide is doing places like Bosnia, Rwanda, and Sudan a disservice. Genocide is a very very grave term and should only be used when clearly applicable.
Except that the actions of the pilgrims, continuing to walk along at the same pace, not trying to help their companions, scattering, or even hitting the deck to make themselves less of a target seem to be actions of people under fire. Futher the actions of the climbers when PRC troops show up looking for a fugitive seem overly calm combined with that there wasn't a single shot of a PRC troop within about a 100 yards even though they supposedly entered the camp of the climbers. Do those strike you as being the actions of people under that sort of a situation? It might have happened as you said but these actions strike me as being odd. I think the difference between us is that I'm analyzing the video on its own merit and not as jumping to a conclusion based upon previous history. Something that you're usually the one arguing for such as in the "Macaca" debate.
