China preparing for an invasion of Taiwan?

Well, honestly, a few of you really don't have a clue about China.

And for the others, you know who you are.

 

Okay but the problem is we, ordinary people, will never know the real policies of any country.

But we can take a look at the situation in China. Situation that we can see for ourselves (if you are there, of course). Let's try, this is going to be a long post.

Nobody in China wants war. I'm not including the insane people in this statement. And the Chinese government leaders are sane and cool headed people, yes. Are they honest? Do you really think any politician on this planet is honest? Surely not. As long as they are doing something good for the country, we are satisfied. And the PRIORITY in China is to develop the economy and to do business. We are talking about CASH. In that respect, the government is doing all it can to provide a stable and desirable environment for economy to grow. No one wants a Mao clone back in power now. I'm not saying that Mao was bad for China at that time 40/50 years ago. A lot of Chinese, old or young, would argue that Mao was a great leader at the era. But that's another history issue we don't want to dwell into here.

I can't prove what I've just said. You have to be in China to understand the situation. But I can tell you this much. The son of one of the very top (VERY TOP) leaders in China, a multi-billionaire businessman, used to live in USA for a long time. You think China really wants to nuke USA? For what!?

Now, back to the topic of this thread. Of course China always strive to maintain ("obtain", as some would argue) the capability to retake Taiwan by force. What do you expect? China regards Taiwan as its province and teritory. You may agree or disagree, but, with all due respect, 1.3 billion people (not just the Chinese government) in mainland China does not take your opinion into consideration in this matter. Any leader, be it Mao or Deng or Jiang or Hu, cannot afford to do nothing and allow Taiwan to break away, USA or not. They have no choice because they will not survive in office (yes China is not a democratic country politically, but the leaders still need the people's support anyhow) for a day if that happens. Of course they understand that a war with USA is a bad thing to say the least, but no options there.

But, if given a choice, China does not want to resort to military options. The bottomline is very clear cut: as long as independence is not declared, then military will not be involved. And the status-quo may drag on for 50 years, or even 100 years. Of course Chinese don't like the status-quo, but we are willing to let it be. What's the reasoning behind this?
1)If the political and economical environment remains, Taiwan is nearer to peaceful voluntary reunification with China with every passing minute. Both sides' economy are becoming more and more interdependent. Tens of thousands (I'm not exaggerating) of Taiwan businessmen and THEIR FAMILIES live in mainland China (Shanghai, mostly). Taiwan is one of the largest investors in China. Peaceful reunification is the ideal scenario sought by China. And China do believe that this scenario is quite possible. So why would China prefer to use force now?

2)There are over 20 million Chinese people on the Taiwan island. China does not want to bomb the hell out of those people (We are not monsters, okay? But I know some of you will bring up the student thing again. ). Not to mention the modern infrastructure and industry that took so many years to build it up to the current level.

3)Even if China, as a blood-lusting evil demonic commie country if you like , successfully takes over Taiwan by force, we would be doing more damage to ourselves than good. We will totally ruin the economies of both sides. We will kill thousands of soldiers on both sides and thousands of citizens in Taiwan. And in the process, create millions of vengeful familites. We want to avoid that okay. And obviously we don't really long for a war with USA.

So to summarize, what I'm saying is that China can never agree for Taiwan to break away. China would like Taiwan to come back voluntary, and is working towards that goal for whatever time it takes. But in the worst case scenario that Taiwan dares to officially form a nation, China will have to turn to the last resort, which is to use its military. Therefore, of course China always prepares for an "invasion" of Taiwan. Not that China intends to use force, but just in case it is needed.

By the way, some "facts" presented by others in this thread are not so accurate. Let me clarify:

-Taiwan only became a democracy after the FIRST general elections in the 1990s. Before that, the Kuomintang Party that retreated from mainland China WAS the government. Regardless, USA has been defending Taiwan well before 1990s, democracy or not.
-As much as China has been threatening to use force, Taiwan was in fact also always saying that they will retake mainland by force. Soldiers in Taiwan were each designated large lots of land in mainland as rewards, to be materialized if they reclaim China. But as years went by, they have stopped saying that. Probably because it sounds impossible now.
-In the Tiananmen incident, some students did get killed, but not by the thousands okay?
-War with USA? Believe me, there is only one, probably two countries that Chinese hate with a passion, and USA is not even close. But we prefer to do business. Chinese like money, very much. It is a tradition.

If you have the opportunity, try to visit China and feel whether it is an "evil commie" country or not. There are many great tourism spots. Tell me if you can find one labor camp, I would also like to see one.

P/S: Well honestly, to argue about what's right and what's wrong regarding international politics is like Lakers' fans telling Kings' fans that they s*ck and vice versa.

 

The problem with your argument is that if the Chinese are not preparing for war, why are they spending on defense like there is going to be one tomorrow? Why are they spending precious hard currency on military equipment and research and development if they simply want peace? If they want a "peaceful" reunification with Taiwan, why are they ringing the island with over 350 short range ballistic missiles (better versions of the Scud)? Those don't sound like the moves of a peace-loving nation to me. You poo-poo their human rights records, when it has been openly confirmed that:

1. the Communists gunned down thousands on innocent, peaceful protesters in Beijing in 1989.

2. That they use political prisoners as cheap labor to manufacture consumer goods

3. That their version of the KGB has extensively infiltrated our country, using students on visa as agents either voluntarily or involuntarily by threatening their families.

4. They continue to maintain an illegal occupation of Tibet and continued persecution of the Tibetan Buddhists.

These are not the acts of a benevolent nation that means us no harm. To the Chinese govt., our ideas of freedom and liberty are a very threat to their continued existence.

 

Why does the US spend so much on their military? You spend more then the next ten countries coming after you ins pending put together.

The US also uses prisoners as cheap labor to manufacture consumer goods.

You have, and have had, you share of illegal wars, and also support an uphold illegal occupations by Israel.

 

Illegal occupations by Israel? Give me a break, you worthless, scumsucking, no-load, limp dick, anti-semite. Let me explain something to you....there is no such thing as a country called Palestine. There are no such thing as Palestinians nor have there ever been. There is no distinctive Palestinian language or culture. The Palestinians are Arabs like the rest of their brethern. This is simply a grand charade that will eventually result in the destruction of Israel, plain and simple.

Why is that the Arabs have 90 percent of the land in the Middle East, yet the Israelis, with a country that is only a few miles wide in some spots, have to give up land always? And for this "illegal" occupation, the Israelis were invaded by the Arabs twice, once on the onset of their Independence and during the Yom Kippur War. The Six Day War was a preemptive strike against forces massing for yet another invasion. When the Israelis took possession of these territories (not called Palestinian at that time), they were taking the spoils of a war forced on them by the Arabs.

And limpdick, we spend trillions on our military so most of the world doesn't have to. We intervene in conflicts that no one wants to get into or are unable. And yet we are accused in whining tones of spending too much! Make up my mind, will you? We have to spend our money because we are a global power, with global interests in multiple regions to protect.

I don't know what crackrock you've been smoking lately, but what wars are legal? The declared ones? The only principle in nation-state dealings that is matters is the use of force, plain and simple. Everything else is either related to the use of force or bull****.

And I don't have a problem with our convicted criminals doing something with their time besides watching cable TV and wishing for soap on a rope. The difference is those prisoners in China are political ones, jailed for simply speaking out about the govt. There is no comparison there.

 

Bama,
You usually make very convincing arguments but when you resort to name calling you only alienate people. Remember some of these folks are from completely different backgrounds, with different points of view, like:

"I'm not saying that Mao was bad for China at that time 40/50 years ago."

He is probably too young to have any personal knowledge of The Cultural Revolution and receives no information about the millions of people forced in to work camps and starved to death. Any government that buys the school books is going to avoid any criticism of their own actions. That manipulation is easier in the more closed the societies.

So educate them when you can, without the derisive comments. You may be effecting change more than you realize.

 

Well, you seem to be the expert. There was no Israel before the English (or whoever it was) took land that they had occupied by force and gave it to the jews.
I´m not "against" jews or anyone else because of their religion. I do however think that a nation that is for one religion only is as bad as a totalitarian state. Don´t you believe in freedom of religion? I dont approve of theocracy in arab states either.

I agree in part. You do spend your money to look after your interests all over the world. "Your interests" are however yours and not the rest of the worlds, and still you use military means all over the world to enforce them. I would love to make up your mind, but the outlook doesn´t appear promising.

You were saying that Chinas occupation of Tibet was illegal, but apparently that wasn´t so since they are much stronger than Tibet they can just march right on in. How do you want it?

I agree it´s worse with political prisoners. However, prison labor has consequenses. Honest workers loose their jobs because the state and companies use cheap prison labor. Some of the workers who are now unemployed can´t find another job. Because of the poor social security system they get desperate. They turn to crime and get put in jail, where they are used as cheap labor.

 

Legendary...I don't know where you heard that, but all the prisoners do here is make liscence plates and clean trash off the roads and stuff like that. I don't know of any prisoners who make consumer goods. I have never even heard of that. I know people in jail and they aren't sweatshop workers. If anything they have fun in prison. Kind of crazy but thats what they say. Granted, those people don't care about their future at all, but hey just throwing it out there. They get as much food as they want also. Sorry, but the prisons here simply are not sweatshops.

 

I dunno...I just thought a treaty was supposed to be a sort of oath that you were not supposed to lie about. I guess I'll make sure to never believe you when you say you'll keep to your word if you feel this way.

I didn't say America was evil. When did I say that? Jesus man you just like putting your own ideas down as my words. I was showing that America doesn't have a perfect moral history either.

Just curious...how do you feel about how the government lying about the testing of radioactive materials on our soldiers? Is it ok because it was only a few we wiped out so screw them they aren't important? Is there any sort of human aspect to you? Honestly, was it ok for the Nazis to round up the Jews and kill them in order to get them off their land and take their wealth? Or is it only ok when America was killing off Indian tribes and their food supplies, which killed many innocent people, who didn't cooperate and leave their land they had occupied for many years before we came over? We had a systematic war to wipe out the Indians...that is attempted genocide.

I love your morality...you should have worked for Enron. Hey just because **** over a few people its all good as long as it gets us going.

 

zhaozhilong....

thanks for jumping in the conversation and telling how things are from a Chinese perspective. i've been trying to say everything you just said, but I guess it doesn't work too well since i've only take 2 courses on China and I am an American but I'm glad to hear that I at least know what I am talking about and that I wasn't too far off on everything I said.

 

This was posted by Glynch in another thread.

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Protest slams Dell's use of prison labor
Friday, January 10, 2003 Posted: 10:50 AM EST (1550 GMT)


LAS VEGAS, Nevada (AP) -- Some environmentalists dressed in prison uniforms say they are a high-tech chain gang.

They demonstrated Thursday outside the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas to protest Dell Computer's use of inmates to recycle computers.

"I lost my job. I robbed a store. Went to jail. I got my job back," chanted five mock prisoners wearing "Dell Recycling Team" signs and linked by chains.

The Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition says Round Rock-based Dell's computer recycling program is a sham.

And the coalition says Dell is putting prison workers in danger because they aren't protected by federal safety standards.

"Dell is an environmental laggard," said protester Fred Kirsch, 26.

Saving money
The coalition also complains that instead of using cheap prison labor, Dell could provide others with jobs.

A Dell spokesman acknowledges that the prison labor does save the company money, but says inmates meet all standards.

Dell's computer exchange program lets owners of obsolete Dell machines pay shipping costs to return their computers.

Ted Smith, executive director of the coalition, said Dell doesn't do much to promote the program.

Hilton said the protest was partially the result of miscommunication, and said his company and the coalition have the same goal.

"I think our challenge now is educating our customers about what their options are," he said. "I think there's a lack of awareness of what to do with an old computer."

Lagging foreign rivals
Victor Ramirez, 30, who uses a Dell computer at his job as a graphic designer for the Chicago Transit Authority, laughed as he watched the protest.

"They'll throw everything in a landfill," Ramirez said of Dell. "They don't care. They're all about the money."


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Maybe it´s not "manufacturing consumer goods", but it´s using them (edit: the prisoners) for work that people not in jail should/could have done.

 

Didn't know about this, but I have actually talked to that guy Fred Kirsch. He works for the Texas Campaign for the Environment. They have made a big push for computer recycling programs. I don't really think this is something prevalent that goes on though. In general, unions are far too strong to let manufacturing jobs go to prisons and cheaper places.

 

That´s good to hear.

 

Hey legendary21, why don't you start a generic thread on how life is really like for the typical Swede. I don't think many of us have actually been there. I'm curious. Is it like Gemany where I've been? I saw virtually no poverty in the parts I was at.

 

“like:

"I'm not saying that Mao was bad for China at that time 40/50 years ago."

He is probably too young to have any personal knowledge of The Cultural Revolution and receives no information about the millions of people forced in to work camps and starved to death. Any government that buys the school books is going to avoid any criticism of their own actions. That manipulation is easier in the more closed the societies.

So educate them when you can, without the derisive comments. You may be effecting change more than you realize.”

Gene,

I am afraid that it may be you who needs to be educated. There are no massive starvations in Cultural Revolution. That happened in Great Leap Forward. The starvation did not happens in the work camp (what do you mean by work camp? Do you mean prison camp?), the starvation in the Great Leap Forward happened in ordinary countryside.

I am sure you can find more information on this subject. But the mistake you had is you are assuming you can get people to forget what they experienced.

Mao closed China to the outside world during his rules. Chinese at that time may not know what happens elsewhere, but they certainly knew what happened in their community.

Some of my Chinese friends still think Mao did more good to China than bad. They think Mao gives China a solid foundation for industry. But mostly, they are grateful that he united the country, repelled Japanese and kicked out western colonists.

I understand there may be a hard concept for some to swallow since we are usually the one to dish out. But for those who are at the receiving end of the colonism, they really dislike it.

Personally, I disagree with the part that Mao shall hog all the glory of unification, and elimination of foreign dominance. I think the Nationalist had a lot to do with it (if not more). But I will not accuse any Chinese of being brain-washed just because they disagree with me on something they and their parents had personal experience with.

p.s., Both Zhao (sp?, the previous premier) and Deng (the paramount leader before Zhao) were the victims of Cultural Revolution, you would think it is human nature as well as for political necessity for them to minimize the significance of Mao, yes?

 

They were victims because they were reformers. They were already trying to do away with Mao's reforms when Mao was still around.

 

zhaozhilong,

You deserve props too.

Now, if some patriotic American posts a rational response on the side of US to balance zhaozhilong's message, it'll be perfect.

No propaganda please, from both sides

 

Cool it on the names, bamaslammer.

 

Actually, you are mistaken on this.

http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=2628

http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=864

The for-profit prison industry uses their prisoners as slave labor throughout the US.