China has U.S. anti-missile tech, via transfer from Israel

But how should we get more involved? Should we be strong arming the Israelis, arming the Palestinians or what? I don't see how us siding with either side helps without making the situation much worse. IMO taking a step back and letting them sort it out will help the situation more by allowing them to come an 'organic' peace rather than something that we impose that would only breed resentment from one side, the other or both.

 

Well the US still is the one country that has any influence over Israel anymore but its virtually impossible politically to use that leverage in any useful manner. Not to mention, there are just serious structural issues that are hindering any peace accord between the two.

This isn't the 90s anymore in which we could point the finger at Israel for failing to cooperate with a largely non-violent Palestinian resistance. The Palestinian territories are falling apart and there simply is no effective leadership anymore. Consequently, US leverage over Israel is much less effective since the Palestinians will have a hard time reciprocating any agreement considering the Palestinian Authority has very little actual control anymore.

So yes, US leverage over Israel is becoming more and more irrelevant. I think the current administration has been largely unwilling to use what leverage we have to produce any meaningful peace. And if we continue to have administrations that will fund Israel without holding them accountable for anything, then our current "leverage" with Israel is a waste.

Eventually, US leadership in the region will become worthless. The Israeli disengagement strategy in my opinion signals the end of any form of negotiation over borders. Israel is moving ahead to define borders on its terms and there really isn't much that the Palestinians can do about it considering their government is a government in name only. The process is largely out of our hands now and the Bush administration has made that clear. And since we're taking a hands off approach we should probably stop throwing money their way as well.

 

Israeli engineers are as capable as American or Russians. The sad fact is that they could make a killing with their technology in the arms market. Plus, their spies probably have our technology like a loose sieve. This and other factors mentioned plays very heavily in our engagement (billions in aid and weaponry) with the Israelis and its neighbors.

It's pretty sad how we've come to rely on Israel. It could be called political terrorism if the American military and political leadership wasn't so willing.

 

I say good on China for trying to establish an indigenious weapons program. the chinees goverment produces it's own fighter jets, Tanks, havacrafts, Armored carriers and navy destroyers. they should be applauded for that. the us must have allowed the sale to go through. i cant see the how isrealies would go behind the back of america....

 

I was just replying to Bigtexxx for claiming “Israel is not a trustworthy ally. They're also ungrateful. I say we cut 'em loose and see how they fare.” I just think that ‘cut em loose’ is somewhat of an unappreciative statement concerning a community that is as strong as it is in the U.S, partly due to the powerful lobby group.
(also agree of the pro-israel statement you made).
I just posted that article just cause i thought it would be a nice read, not necessarily to make a point.

 

Political terrorism?

Read my previous posts...it's American Jews and many Conservative Christians that make this pro-Israel lobby so powerful, and both are deeply a part of our nation and what we are.

Again, if Israel was not threatened with extinction this lobby would not be so motivated. E.g. you've seen some here some of Iranian descent wonder openly how they would react if the US attacked Iran; ancestral ties are important to people.

 

I thought a bunch of people on this board said Patriot missiles didn't really work and their success was all propoganda by the US? If that's really the case then China has purchased a dud and the US has nothing to worry about....

 

And I was responding to that content, not the 'cutem loose' post. I also dislike the 'they' reference, as if Israel is pulling all the strings. W/o pro-Israel Americans, Israel could accomplish nothing here politically.


Getting back to Iran, I hope it works out diplomatically. We've screwed up Iran enough in the past.

 

I wonder if they sold it to them before or after it became public that Patriot Missiles didn't work.

 

IIRC, the Israelis have been working on an replacement to the Patriot system known as the Arrow.

 

I would also mention that, while the latest version of the Patriot is supposedly improved (and I would hope so), it is a superb anti-aircraft missile. Giving the technology to China would never have been approved by any US administration, and if Israel did in fact sell the Patriot technology to China, it was an unfriendly act to the US and her allies, to say the least.

I would also add that if the story is true, it would put paid to the notion that Israel is in the pocket of the US, and vice versa. It simply isn't true. Huge influence on each other? Certainly, but both countries ultimately do what is percieved by their respective governments as being in their interests. (I frequently disagree with both governments!)



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Yes, it's political terrorism based on the threat of an unleashed nuclear Isreal that can also claim a majority of our high level secrets. Their weapons trade plays into the ploy of self sufficiency in case America cuts off its annual billion dollar package.

The interest groups you mentioned are not the only factor supporting this mad cycle. For better or worse, we've kept a strong doctine to maintain our allies over the years. Also, our military planners deeply trust Israeli capabilities and intelligence gathering...it's the intent they don't trust. The post 9/11 climate also boosted the alliance's goals despite Bush and Sharon's posturings...

The political jockeying from pro-Israel distinguishes Israel from any other American ally who have had their brushes with their neighbors. The debate over Israel's status has become so muddled that anyone who criticizes the policy can be called an anti-semite.

This country, our supposed strong ally, has been caught actively spying on American soil. The public controversy over selling high tech weapons to China has been going on for over 2 years. Historically, the murky details with the sinking of the USS Liberty in international waters should've caused a larger outrage.

Unfortunately, the opportunity for internal reassessment of the alliance has long passed. We'd be worse off cutting off Israel and having no leverage than continuing the status quo and burning off billions in aid and hardware. So terrorism is too extreme a word, but the Israelis have pinned us to a damn ugly position.