China, and the competitive edge of having no moral culpability

I just don't understand how you can't see how it doesn't impact global trade?

The underlying systems in each respective country is what allows things like subsidized pricing or a lack of it.

I think you are just seeing a mindset that thinks decades at a time vs a mindset that thinks quarterly returns at a time.

America had a period when it didn't think quarterly returns at a time. Before Jack Welch, Reagan, shareholder capitalism, there was a semblance of somewhat of a command economy. Today we have literally private companies being responsible for distributing government welfare programs. Like we are ****ed as country with how everything is financialized.

 

Stock buybacks don’t directly impact global trade because they’re primarily a domestic corporate action. They influence the value of a company’s shares, not the pricing of goods or services in international markets. Eg- when a company like Apple buys back its own shares, it uses capital to reduce the number of outstanding shares, which could increase the stock price and benefit shareholders. This is a domestic financial maneuver and doesn’t directly affect the price or competitiveness of Apple’s products in global markets.

If we’re discussing government subsidies or bailouts that indirectly lead to stock buybacks, I understand your point. When governments provide financial support to companies, it’s possible that the company might use those funds for stock buybacks rather than reinvesting in its workforce or operations. While this may skew the benefits of government support toward shareholders, it still doesn’t directly affect the price of exports or global trade itself.

The real issue with global trade arises when governments use subsidies or other tactics to directly distort market conditions, which isn’t the case with stock buybacks. If companies reinvest that capital into expanding operations or reducing prices in foreign markets, that’s a secondary effect, but still not the same as distorting the global market with government-directed subsidies.

 

I hear you – this is a completely different and big issue. From corporate capture ---> corporate oligarchy

 

Corporate oligarchy is going to try to sell you that the country that does command economy that reduces the power of capital owners aka the oligarchs is cheating.

They have a vested interest in calling China's philosophy on command economy and looking decades ahead as cheating because that philosophy removes power from oligarchs.

 

It's the opportunity cost of rather investing in the underlying infrastructure that can scale and mas produce cheap manufactured goods to flood foreign markets, they'd rather invest in shareholder value.

Because at this point China's ability to spam cheap manufactured products into foreign markets has nothing to do with cheap labor. In the 90s and early aughts? Ya. But today it has to do with being significantly ahead in manufacturing infrastructure and vocational training of precision manufacturing and tooling. And that is because China's command economy doesn't think quarterly returns at a time.

 

Again, these are two (or more) separate issues.

China is unfairly dumping on everyone. It’s an issue of unfair trade.

The U.S. private sector, as a whole, is focused on short-term gains (stock price) rather than long-term. The gov could help shape long-term strategies (with or without central control).

Both need to be addressed.

 

I guess we disagree here that domestically with a speculative short term economy goes hand in hand with what capital owners and what they deem as cheating and what China just sees as "China first".

Because theoretically wouldn't America using CIA and State Department and DOD assets to supress labor laws around the global South be cheating also?

No, because that practice doesn't harm capital owners.

It seems like capital owners view anything that harms their speculative economy as "cheating".

Also, the means of Chinese manufacturing allows for undercutting of prices in foreign markets like the ev market in Europe which means Chinese command economy philosophy that isn't nearly as speculative and short term in thinking has a role to play in China having the means to "cheat".

 

On your first point, we don’t really disagree. I fully understand why China is doing it—and at the same time, it’s absolutely unfair in the context of international trade.

As for U.S. interventions to suppress labor movements abroad, yes, that’s interference. You can definitely call it cheating in a moral or political sense. But it’s a different kind of cheating. I try not to lump everything together into one big muddy blob where it becomes impossible to diagnose or solve anything. That kind of thinking can actually backfire and undermine your own goals.

If you and I are trading, and you have the capital to artificially inflate supply for a decade while I don’t, I can’t realistically compete - no matter how hard I try. That’s why many emerging economies have officially filed complaints at the WTO. This isn’t just about protecting capital owners - it’s also about protecting domestic workers who lose jobs because a capital-rich country is using state resources to sustain and expand its own economy at the expense of others.

 

I think it's important to understand who is crying foul from these countries. So a influx of cheap Chinese manufactured products exist in India for Indians to consume and this prevents India's capital owners from entering these markets that China dominates with their flooding of undercut prices.

So that implies you believe if the capital owners of India weren't undercut, this would benefit the Indian labor class? India has labor laws and right to unionization on the books but they are hardly ever enforced and wealth inequality in India is some of the highest on the planet.

So we arrive at the same dilemma as American laborers. Is bringing back manufacturing going to increase the quality of life of the average American worker or is it just going to increase the wealth amount of capital owners?

I'm sure capital owners in India and Turkey would love to dominate more markets and sell more manufactured goods but is that for their self interest or to benefit their people?

 

, which indludes exporters such as those involved in farm equipt, farm products (pork exports to China) machineries, software licenses, etc,


yes, QE is a subsidy that helps exporters

 

Kevin O'leary is a very stupid person. And I don't even think he believes in this bs he's spewing. He's stupid because someone asking him a most basic question like "If China steals ips and cheat, why do you still have your products manufactured in China? Why are you volunteering your ips being stolen?" he'd stumble. But the reality is he's calculating no one on Fox Business is going to ask that question and he probably has a very low opinion of the intelligence of the Fox Business viewership demo.

 

China cheats so much. Remember all those democratically elected regimes in South America China funded to topple and replace with fascist regimes that would suppress labor laws for Chinese capital owners to come in and lower labor costs. That is cheating at its max.

 

I just love the pretty red font you use. So please explain what’s happening.

- “Trump is doing what every nation in the world has complained about but didn’t have the leverage to do”. So please help us with our “naivety”.

What exactly is the “leverage” that Trump has that has led him to (1) boldly announce nonsensical universal tariffs with rates fabricated out of thin air; (2) engage in and escalate in a tariff war with China; (3) only to fold like a little b-tch within days, backpedalling from the fabricated universal tariffs; (4) beg Xi for a phone call; (5) when Xi ignores him, Trump folds like a little b-tch and pulls tariffs for phones, computers and tech; (6) then in a pathetic and transparent attempt to save face (that nobody believes except you moron MAGA), declares oh you better watch out Xi, we are gonna do an INVESTIGAtION on semiconductors and such, AND THEN you’ll see some whopping tariffs believe you me, they’ll be HUGE, and (6) Xi starts withholding rare earth minerals and magnets.

- with all this “leverage”, shouldn’t Trump be winning? (or maybe you don’t have a good understanding of what the word “leverage” means?)

- Trump’s rich tech friends forced him to backtrack? Hmm. So you’re telling us that Trump is such a b-tch he caved to “rich tech friends”?

- And that he was so naive he didn’t know how the real world works and thought his stupid chest puffing bluff wouldnt get called?

Thank you for your 6th grade level masterclass on “leverage” and “naivety”. It was very cute of you to use the pretty red font. I’m sure Mrs. Edwards will give you a couple extra points on your social studies paper.
Jebus you are an idiot.

Lastly, in the honors classes, they teach that both naivety and naïveté are words in the English language, but if you wanna go places, naïveté is the commonly accepted and more refined way to go. I hope that helps you in your future endeavors.

 

Neither does Trump

Rocket River

 

It's not global, but regional (mostly countries across the pacific ocean in America and Asia). As the lead, you are writing the rules or have heavy influence on it. Chian has actually tried to join this group to do exactly that - influence the rules.

Again, the TPP was originally a direct response to China's trade practices - one that Trump abandoned, then later tried to rejoin, but couldn't.

Now, he's taking a wrecking ball as his "solution," risking a global recession and alienating traditional allies. It has been, so far, a disaster in its execution.

 

This thread is rich in irony. b****ing and moaning China doesn't follow the rules but somehow Americans feel entitled to spread 'American Democracy' through force all around the world. And in the end, the wealthiest of Americans profit and the middle class gets to enjoy low cost goods. Without these low cost goods, these same Americans would be living like the Chinese peasants they mock. And then they b**** and moan about chinese slave labor (which they are pretty clueless on this subject too) while American import millions of illegals to abuse.

Also, Americans have become completely clueless how advanced China has become. And what do they do? They go out and vandalize and torch the products of one of Americas greatest automation hubs (tesla). Idiots.

For the slow people in the thread... This is China's retaliation to tariffs.

 

Where are we currently trying to spread democracy through force?

 

You're right.

We ****ed ourselves bigly for the past 50 years and the now bottom 90% of Americans who suffered the most brought in a populist like Trump to hack up an easy fix. We're at a crossroads where either the oligarchs extract even more control or the populists take it back.

I entertained the idea of a Mar a Lago Accords restructuring to buy time, but our core problems are too deep. Extreme inequality, dollars as speech, a deeply controlled media that literally brainwashes whatever dueling agendas our oligarchs put forward, aging infra and a government unwilling to force companies to put back more into this country.

On the public end, we are too entitled, easily distracted, complain about education/work taking over work/life balance, and heavily rely on victimization/litigation/government to fix anything and everything that gives us mental distress.

China and Asia has been doing the hard dirty work while our companies turned into middlemen extracting a "tax" that can easily hover around 1/3 of the profits. This applies to us and also to their suppliers. They're not even reinvesting that money with the same zeal in order to build up market share with the rest of the developing world. That's China with belt and road.

There's many things America is still blessed with, but the ledger we've run up has to be paid for a decade or two. It's not just fiscal debt. If we don't fix the current oligarchy, from smart people at the top, then it will be addressed by the mob from the bottom.