I don't have kids but if I did have kids I would hope I would raise them to make their own decisions and not have to rely on some crotchety old man to make their decisions for them. That includes all crotchety old men. Relying on the government to enforce standards of behavior for one's children seems a little irresponsible. OTOH, I'll contradict myself re: high cigarette prices - isn't there an AMA study showing a dramatic drop in underage smoking for every increment in price of cigarettes? If you're over 21 it's your own fault for being stupid enough to smoke.
The cigarette "black market" is people driving from New York to Jersey to save the 3 or 4 dollars per pack in tax that NY charges. New York gets to show lower cigarette sales and Jersey gets the cash. 80% of drug street prices is profit. If we keep the price about the same or drop it just a little, the economics don't work out for black marketeers. It happened just like that in our country's past. Alcohol prohibition was expensive, ineffective, political, religious, and deadly. It spawned the likes of Al Capone and Bugsy Seigel and was the biggest contributing factor to the Mafia having the power it has today. How much bathtub gin and moonshine have you had offered to you lately? The reason we keep the prices the same (and optimize the manufacturing and distribution costs) is to force drug use and abuse to pay for itself. Drug use and abuse is one of the bigggest drains on all different parts of our society. The drug profits should go to mitigate the real costs as we study the best ways to alleviate the social costs. That leaves the $100 billion per year we spend on it to pay for Social Security. I actually think that everything over and above the operations cost for regulation, education, and treatment should go to paying for prescriptions for the elderly (did I mention this earlier in this thread?).
Very well said. I think I have heard that. I agree that cigarettes are one of the worst, most expensive habits you can pick up.
Andy, I have seen studies that show how mar1juana seriously damages the brain in a permanent fashion. Much more so then Alcohol. I don't want to legalize it in any form. If your problem is the criminalization of it, then simply adjust the penalties for usage. However, I do not want the message sent to my children that mar1juana is legal at any age. And you ask what does driving have to do with it. A lot..... In smaller countries they walk to a lot of places, or they ride bicycles etc....but here in the USA we drive everywhere. And being high and drivig, or drunk and driving is a serious offense. DD
So living in New York and taking the subway or cabs everywhere would make it okay for me to be high all day? Just ribbin ya DD You make very good points, so does Mr Moon I tend to fall on the decriminalization side myself. Just think of the TAX revenue!
Why decriminalize?? The source remains the dealer. Legalization and regulation is the more effective strategy if you want to remove the gangs/violence/and underworld. Much harder to sell to the American public though.
bnb wrong choice of words on my part. Legalization Yes, it's kind of hard to tax something if it's not legal. my bad
Please quote them! I have searched high and low for years and I quoted the significant studies done on the issue of drugs earlier in the thread. To this day, there is not a single documented case of mar1juana contributing to a persons death in a physiological way (I will talk about driving below). You cannot make that claim with a straight face about alcohol. Your problem is "Reefer Madness" propaganda. Once again, I will ask you to just look at a few of the studies I quoted. Look for yourself at the information on the 'net. If you look at the data, you are intelligent enough to see the truth. In a prohibitionist system, study is not possible. We cannot study the long term effects of something that is Schedule I because no study is possible for drugs in that schedule. There are a few long term FEDERAL medical mar1juana users, but the program was shut down just as it began and only a few got signed up. The government supplies them because they know they would face lawsuits that could bring down the whole drug war if they cut those patients off. OK, how about no jail time for use, but a series of increasing fines for public use. If you commit a crime while under the influence, you give up the right to use that as a defense, and if you are found to have committed a crime on or for drugs, it draws an automatic stay at a treatment facility BEFORE you do your time for the crime. That is a great quote and I only have issues with one word, legal. I do not want the message sent to my children that mar1juana (or any other drug including alcohol) is acceptable at any age. The thing is, they are getting the message that drugs are acceptable from their peers and the dealers. You know, the very people that are supplying the drug. One of the things that is addicting about the drug lifestyle is adrenaline. It is a little exciting for many people to do something they know is "bad." If drugs (and drug information) are delivered in an antiseptic, boring environment the "forbidden fruit" effect is taken away. Totally agreed. Driving While Impaired (DWI) is a serious crime that I think is treated too lightly in our culture. This would not change with a regulated system, it would be improved. If someone is suspected of DWI, they can be tested for anything at the roadside and if they are impaired, they should be thrown in jail. They have breathalyzers for mar1juana in Holland. DD, I understand that thinking differently about this issue is difficult. It took me years to pull the wool off my eyes and actually look at what our government is doing to this country in the name of the drug war. I know that if you free your mind just a bit, you can be taken out of the Matrix. I'll be here to help you through. After all, we both want for our children to grow up without getting caught up in drugs. We just differ a bit on the methodology.
I don't even like the term legalization myself because it doesn't truly represent what I want, which is hard core regulation of these substances. Add that to the fact that sheep are conditioned to hear the word and go "legalization baaaaad."
I have a question. When some of you are saying legalization...do you actually mean free, unhindered public use? One thing I think illegalization <i>does</i> do is prevent people from using or being high on drugs <b>in public</b> for fear of being caught, and to me, that's where the problems really begin to increase. Sure, people can obtain drugs illegally with ease, but isn't it true that those people usually try and hide their actual drug usage by only doing it in private? Imagine if people only drank alcohol in their own homes. Would that not decrease a lot of the negative effects of alcohol?
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I do believe that public use and intoxication should be ticketable offenses with escalating fines and a stay at a treatment facility for chronic users. If people are able to acquire drugs in a regulated system, they should use those drugs in private behind closed doors. Our children should not be exposed to those idiots. I don't want to see people smashed out in public. You get enough of that going to a football game with the drunks.
The real solution is simple: cut off a hand for posession. No overcrowding in prisons, minimal tie-up of the justice system, vast reduction in use. Would you smoke up if you would have a hand amputated if caught, heck no. In fact, I think summary amputation should be the punishment for every crime. No long, drawn out trial, no appeals, no lingering on death row. You get the same trials you have now for things like speeding, and immediately upon conviction, sentance is carried out. Right there in the courthouse, they are standing by with an axe. CHOP. Debt to society paid in full. Second offense, other arm. Third offense, leg. Fourth offense, other leg. Fifth offense, tongue. Sixth, eyes. Seventh, ears. Eighth, life imprisonment under sedation. I guarantee drastic decreases in crime rates nationwide.
Even better---if you use drugs, you are killing yourself slowly so we will just do it fast. Death sentance carried out on the courthouse lawn, hang them and get it over with.
OK, lemme give both of you law dogs a scenario here... Let's say a girl you know calls you up and says "Can you take me somewhere?" and she's hot and stuff so you say "Sure... but where are we going?" She says :I am going to an ALANON meeting." You say cool the chick is trying to get her life together because she knows somebody who is an alcoholic and she is getting counseling to help. On the way to the meeting you get pulled over by a cop, be it for speeding or expired license tags whatever. Anyway, he asks if he can search the vehicle and you know you've done nothing wrong so you say sure. Well homechick hears this and freaks. She sticks a joint that she had in her purse in your ash tray or cigarette pack, whatever. It's now in your car. Needless to say the cop finds it. You are BUSTED! OK in StupidMoniker's world, you just lost a hand. In Flatliner's land of law and order, you get the rope on the courthouse steps. Oh, now you say "That would never happen!" BUT IT DID! It happened to my uncle, he was on probation after getting arrested at war protest. The joint was not his. It was the other girls and she even admitted it to the DA. Didn't matter, he went to prison in Huntsville for 5 YEARS. Now, you two need to think about the crap that you are spewing in here. StupidMonkier wants to live with Middle Eastern laws, go there, have fun. Flatlinertoo, since you won't even listen to reason and instead want to just post hateful junk, you get hate coming right back at you pal. You act like a jerk, I'll treat you like one.
The real jerks are you stupid druggies that dont care about the meeessage we are sending to kids. My brother is a drug addict. He is an adult. If you are legalizing it might as well put a gun to his head and pull the trigger.
Did I say that I use drugs? I don't remember stating that fact... probably because I don't. Hell, I don't even drink or smoke. The fact that I want to end mar1juana prohibition does not mean that I use. What meeessage am I sending to kids? That MJ is OK? Never said that either. Do you really think that if I walk up to a kid and say "Drugs are bad, mmkay?" that they will stop? Doesn't seem like your brother is having a lot of trouble getting it now, what is legalizing and regulating it going to change? Do you seriously think it easier for a 15 year old to get a beer and cigarettes or a joint? The drug dealers don't card people. Since we are specifically talking about mar1juana here, are you trying to tell me that your brother is addicted to mar1juana? Kinda doubt it.
He started with pot and now hes a crackhead. I dont mean to insult, but it makes me mad that people want to get more people able to get drugs. Kids get beer from b rothers and from the frige. with legal drugs they can pick them up the same way.
