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Chicken or the egg?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by fchowd0311, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    There seems to be a debate that has divided the GARM into two camps.

    There seems to be a chicken or the egg dilemma going on in the GARM. What came first? Role players being incompetent to score consistently or an offensive system where one player dominates forcing a system where only players with gifted iso skills can score consistently?
     
  2. bmd

    bmd Member

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    Role players who cannot create their own shot forced Harden to take over so much.

    It wasn't a problem when Parsons and Lin were here. They all spread the ball around and could all get their own shot.

    Last season is when Harden really became a 1-man offense because the team lacked players who could do anything with the ball other than shoot an open shot.
     
  3. Briand2714

    Briand2714 Member

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  4. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Watching other teams play, non gifted iso players have much more ways to score than open 3pters. The system doesn't allow for cuts, curls, movement without the ball.
     
  5. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Exactly. Because they have more versatile players and a better offensive scheme.
     
  6. ibm

    ibm Member

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    we wanted the so-called 3&d players, just because we thought harden was so great on offense that we put those 3&d players around him it will take care of both sides the ball.

    and now we're complaining about those role players cannot create their own shots.

    it just doesnt work that way.
     
  7. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    We have a defensive team that doesn't play strong team defense and only two scorers in Harden and Beasley - who really isn't a primary weapon.

    That's the issue with this team, other than chemistry.
     
  8. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Which goes to the heart of the problem of the chicken or the egg dilemma.

    Was this offensive scheme created to excel Harden's strengths? If Harden can only excel with this type of offensive scheme, should we change it? Can we win a ring with a offensive system that caters towards Harden's strengths? If Harden is going to be our centerpiece going forward, does he need to adapt, or does the new coaching regime need to adapt to Harden's style? It's an important question moving forward.
     
  9. FTW Rockets FTW

    FTW Rockets FTW Contributing Member

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    Yep,

    We surrounded Harden with what were 3 plus defenders to cover for his zero D, zero effort on defensive end arse and now we want those same speciality role players to start creating their own shots :confused:

    Perhaps if Harden could play some D and stay in front of his man and focus every once in a while on the defensive end, it will allow for another two way player?
     
  10. bmd

    bmd Member

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    Parsons used to constantly cut to the basket and get lay-ups. One of Brewer's favorite moves is to curl off a screen near the elbow for a little jump shot in the lane.

    It's not that the offense doesn't allow for those things... the players simply do not do those things.

    And we're not talking about ISO here. Lin could get to the rim and not get his shot blocked. Parsons could get to the rim too. We're not talking about dribble dribble ISO. I'm talking about players who can make positive moves with the ball.

    Harden, Lin, and Parsons could constantly attack. And that's the difference in the offense. Harden is the only one who can attack the rim now.
     
  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I find it quite ironic that Lin is magically now part of a hypothetical solution when he was literally the most hated player on this GARM behind Scottie Quittin.
     
  12. ibm

    ibm Member

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    a one man show, iso or hero ball is never gonna win anything. there were/are many far better than harden, and they did/do not win that way.

    why is this even a question...
     
  13. bmd

    bmd Member

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    I'm not saying Lin is part of the solution. I'm saying attacking the rim is something he did well and it helped the offense.
     
  14. Briand2714

    Briand2714 Member

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    Houston has the 3rd worst offense when Harden sits

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/on-off/2016/

    101.8 ORtg

    only slightly better than 76ers and the Lakers without Harden

    a huge 8.3 drop from when Harden is on the court


    defensively? not much of a difference.

    108.4 (Harden on the court) vs 107.7 (off the court)


    We don't play better without Harden, that's for sure
     
  15. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Doesn't Harden share majority of his time with the starters?
     
  16. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    You're leaving out a key piece. The plan was that we'd have two stars to do the heavy lifting and then we'd just plug the role players in around them.

    The problem is that Dwight's injuries have diminished his game to the point that he hasn't been a factor on offense in several years. That's the problem.

    Dwight not being able to be the 2nd option on offense forces one of those role players to step up and try to fill that role. Everyone saw that Dwight in LA wasn't the same Dwight as in his prime Orlando days. The hope was that he would get healthy again and return to that form. Unfortunately he didn't and won't ever get back to being that Dwight.

    You are correct that we tried to put 3&D guys around Harden but none of those guys were good defensively this year. Howard's nowhere near elite defensively anymore, he just can't move well enough to cover the ground that he use to. Ariza has had guys blow by him all year. Beverley hasn't been the same defensive guy in a couple of years.

    Having guys who are suppose to specialize in playing defense all of a sudden be average to below average on defense is a huge problem. What you end up with is a rotation that features way too many players who are average to below average on both sides of the ball. If you're going to be a specialist and you aren't that great at your specialty then what use are you?
     
  17. Briand2714

    Briand2714 Member

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    and? Harden has by far the highest +/- numbers on this team. If anyone benefits from playing with other players, it's Howard and other role players that shares playing time with Harden, not the other way around.
     
  18. Vivi

    Vivi Member

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    Harden needs to work a bit on his body and change his mindset, after that he'll be a beast.

    Morey needs to sign a couple of quality AND SMART players, we have the dumbest roster in the league.

    Than sign a coach who can bring some leadership and we'll be ok.
     
  19. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    He does, but all you have to do is compare what the offense does with each of the starters off the court. Harden being off the court is the only one that causes a spike in scoring like that.

    Likewise, you can see each player on the teams performance with and without Harden on the court. The only two players who are better with Harden on the bench are T Jones and Harrell. For most of the players it's a dramatic difference. I posted the comparision is another thread. You can search for it if you'd like to see the actual numbers.
     
  20. ibm

    ibm Member

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    agree with the d12 part. we paid, we gambled. and we failed.

    also agree with the role players' defense part. but the question to ask here is - why? why you think that happened?

    even if these defensive role players didnt fail this yr., we're still not going to win. to surround one offensively talented player with players like those and to set up an iso-based offense is never going to work imo.
     

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