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Chicago Tribune: Mcgrady unhappy in Houston

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Yao#1, Dec 31, 2007.

  1. wheelmi

    wheelmi Contributing Member

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    With a hell of a supporting cast. When has T-Mac ever had that kind of support?

    Duncan has had a hell of a supporting cast in (Robinson, Parker, Genobly spelling?, not to mention Finley and others), Wade had Shaq still at the top of his game (we'll see how good Wade is on your Scale this year when they either don't make the playoffs or exit first round in the leastern conference. Billups has Prince, Wallace, Tech foul boy, and others), and for Parker, see Duncan above. As for LaBron, he is the only one you might have an argument for on your scale, although he has been in the leastern conference, which downgrades the credibility of your argument.

    I guess the Magic supporting cast were world beaters?? Oh and by the way, T-Mac lead them to the same first round exit Kobe lead the Lakers to without Shaq, with a better supporting cast than T-Mac had in Orlando.

    The playoffs, on a team that had Max money tied up in Hill who could not stay healthy his entire time in Orlando. T-Mac lead them to the playoffs single handedly, unless you are going to tell me that Tyronne Lue, Juwan Howard, et all were world beaters as well.


    T-Mac was the scoring champ for two years, I would say that is pretty Jordan-esque, expecially when you consider the other teams defence did not have a single other player they feared on the court. Wade had Shaq.


    What?????? Spurs do not have to rely soley on Duncan because they have Parker and Ginobili, not because Duncan cannot close out a game. This comment is stupid!!! That's like saying Hakeem could not close out a game because he is a center. Duncan is probably the best powerforward of all time (debateable), and if they needed to rely on him to close out games, they would and could.

    Yeah, I see how much success Kobe and Wade have had without Shaq or with a shell of a Shaq. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    McGrady led a below average Orlando team to the playoffs as well…twice I believe. Those teams had most of their money tied up in Grant Hill (who didn’t play) and I believe the 2nd best player on one of those teams was D.Armstrong. Again, I have yet to see Kobe do what T-Mac hasn’t.

    Bad year from him, on a team with a pathetic supporting cast. Again, Kobe went lotto one season as well (that’s how they got Bynum).

    Odom got more boards and almost as many blocks as our star big-man. Odom shot better from the field. Odom wasn’t embarrassed defensively (granted Yao should not have been checking a quick PF but still). Odom wasn’t outplayed by Okur for half the series.[/quote]

    Yao shot 44% from the field and averaged almost 5 turnovers a game that series. And Boozer scored on him at will. Boozer got boards on him at will, and so did Milsap off the bench. Did you watch any of those games?

    Did Penny’s team beat a team they were favored against or not, and was Penny option 31 on that squad? What team has T-Mac lost to in the playoffs..when he had the better tea,?



    Sure T-Mac is injury prone. How does pointing this out refute the point that Kobe, like him, has failed to get out of round 1 while carrying a team…while playing against a team without as much help, etc?

    I watch Duncan close out games often. I don’t know what Spurs games you are watching.

    Cassell may have never made an All-Star game before but he has never been garbage. He has been a big game player since his rookie year here. This is the same Cassell that helped the Clippers get to the playoffs for the first time in forever. Let’s not try to credit KG for his success. He is a baller. Sprewell was a key cog in a team that went to the Finals before he came to MN.

    So what happened the following season when the surrounding talent didn’t play as well????

    He did in those two seasons (when they made the WCF and this season). I don’t know too many GM’s that would take Carter over Cassell in a game that actually means something. Are you really arguing Carter > Cassell??? Yao has only played well in 1 of his playoff appeareances…and that year we just lost to a better team (Mavs). Continue to ignore that aspect of losing to a better team though….
     
  3. All Souled Out

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    Tracy McGrady in Toronto during the 1999-2000 season. The team included Vince Carter in his prime (the only time he played a full season healthy), Antonio Davis (All-star), Charles Oakley, Doug Christie, Dell Curry, Alvin Williams, Dee Brown, Kevin Willis, and Mugsy Bogues.

    Sounds like a solid supporting cast to me. In fact, the season after McGrady left, Carter took that team past the 1st round.

    And the Toronto Raptors and Orlando Magic played in the West during T-Mac's time there?


    Do you watch basketball?

    See above for what T-Mac had in Toronto. Replace McGrady in that line-up, the Raptors make it to the finals. Replace Duncan with McGrady on the Spurs, and they flounder in mediocrity.

    Orlando's weak supporting cast is a myth perpetuated by McGrady fanboys who don't watch basketball, or only started following when he played in Houston.

    What happened in reality, not in your little McGrady fantasy world:
    1. Tracy McGrady joined an Orlando Magic team that was at .500
    2. Tracy McGrady left an Orlando Magic team dead last in the entire NBA

    Yeah, he sure helped that team. That's the sign of a true winner right there. He takes a mediocre team, and devastates them.

    Reality:
    1. Grant Hill being given max money is no different than Larry Hughes being given it in Cleveland when he misses games routinely like it's a hobby. LeBron made it past the 1st round. It's no different than Wally and Joe Smith being overpaid in Minnesota, while they lost consecutive draft picks (in fact, it's nowhere near as bad). "Grant Hill" is a ridiculous excuse, especially when McGrady asked to be the star (which was why he left Toronto - go search the Toronto Star archives).

    2. The Orlando Magic was a .500 team when McGrady joined. The team was decent, had reigning Coach of The Year, and a Rookie of The Year.

    3. McGrady joined that team at .500, McGrady left that team dead last in the NBA. Again, they could have replaced McGrady with a frying pan, a rock, a briefcase and they would have had the same result.

    Wade had a Shaq that missed half the season, and who Wade carried through the playoffs past a more talented Mavericks team, and a more even Pistons team by scoring 28.4 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.2 SPG 1.1 BPG.

    That championship was Wade's not Shaq. Wade was the MVP, not Shaq. Get that through your rudimentary mind.
     
  4. All Souled Out

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    See post above.


    What happened in reality, not in your little McGrady fantasy world:

    1. Tracy McGrady joined an Orlando Magic team that was at .500.
    2. Tracy McGrady left an Orlando Magic team dead last in the entire NBA

    You mean the supporting cast and team that went down the drain when McGrady joined the team. Again, a .500 team (pre-McGrady) is not below average. It only became below average when McGrady got there, and led that team to the bottom of the NBA. Just like the Raptors got better when McGrady left.

    You mean join a franchise at .500, and devastate it? Yeah, Kobe hasn't done that yet. Let's hope for basketball's sake he never does.

    Again, we already went through this, the Suns play a faster pace. If you can't understand how that effects the statistics (even though Yao still had better stats), then you obviously don't have the brain power to continue this conversation.

    Did you? Who was the "superstar" that shot 39% from the field? I think it was the same guy who bricked from the field shooting 38% against Dallas in a Game 7 back in 05. Or did you convieniently forget that?

    I don't know how you do your arithmetic. But I'll take Yao's 44% over T-Mac's 39% and 38% in Game 7's.

    I think it's time to start cheering for the team's success, and not McGrady's success. There's a huge difference here between a basketball fan, and a McGrady fan. You're obviously the latter.

    He was the starting guard along with Jason Kidd. You're obviously too young to remember the Suns pre-this season.

    Yes, thank you for spewing through your own crap. I've only mentioned this twice before you checked the facts.

    You're obviously too young to remember Vince Carter during his 99-00 season.

    Any real basketball fans here care to enlight him on how great Carter was from 1999-2001?
     
  5. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Before T-Mac got to Orlando they finished at .500. The team was quite different the following year. Five of their top 8 scorers were gone (Mercer, Gatling, Abdul-Wahad, Atkins and Maggette). They changed the team dramatically so they could sign Hill and T-Mac.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2000.html

    The team when T-Mac first got there was quite different.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2001.html

    No offense, but there really isn’t any reason to continue this discussion with you when you obviously don’t even know the two teams were quite different. I would think the fact that a team signed two max players would make that common knowledge that the teams couldn’t be the same…you just can’t afford to bring in two max players and keep the top guys from the past season. But it takes common sense to interpret that…and not just looking at boxscores or records from prior years. And I am saying that in the least offensive way possible….but it is clear you don’t know much about those Orlando squads.

    The Magic were also a completely different team in his final season:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2004.html

    So does that mean you would take Odom’s 48% over both? I’m failing to see how you showing me that T-Mac’s stats sucked disproves that Odom outplayed our all-star big that postseason.

    So I assume that is a “NO” to my question, about Penny being the #1 option and leading a team past round 1 (what we expect out of McGrady)? Those Suns teams had Kidd (HOFer), Cliff Robinson, Marion, Rodney Rogers, Gugliotta, etc. Penny in his Phoenix day’s was nothing to brag about….

    I remember Carter quite well. He has always had a reputation of being a stat filler as opposed to a clutch player, quite the opposite of Sam Cassell or Sprewell. I don’t think you will have any luck finding too many with a different opinion.

    Come back when you actually know what you are talking about….
     
    #285 Icehouse, Jan 2, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  6. Shaw2007

    Shaw2007 New Member

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    WHY NOT trade T-m? :confused:
     
  7. Nitro1118

    Nitro1118 Member

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    As was T-Mac when he had VC, and unlike KG he was shunned by his coach and had to play in the same backcourt as a guy taking 20+ shots a night. And after he left they improved the roster, adding the likes of Mark Jackson and Morris Peterson.

    In the heart of Garnett's 7 conseuctive years of being bounced from the 1st round, Brandon played all of his games after being traded with Minny in '98-'99, and played over 70 games the follwing 2 seasons. In that time he was a 17/8/4 player.

    And players like VC aren't detrimental? As bad as it was for T-Mac to say he didn't go 100% all the time in his final year in Orlando, VC completely gave up his final year or 2, and did dirty stuff like telling the other team what play the Raptors were going to run in the final moments of a close game, etc... Much like Marbury, VC was an all star player that was purely a stat filler (as I see right now living in NJ). Granted he was a better stat filler than Marbury, but T-Mac also didn't get the kind of exposure and fredom KG had to produce like KG was doing.

    Wally had 1 season of 82 games played and one of over 70 games played during the heart of Garnett's 7 consec. years of losing.

    17/4/4 is almost exactly what Manu averaged as he made the ASG in 2005. Those are very good numbers from a 3rd option.

    As for Miller, he only played his first 2 seasons with T-Mac before they traded him for incompetent Drew Gooden, and look at his playoff production-

    '00-'01: 12PPG, 5 RPG, 39% shooting (T-Mac averaged 34/8/7)
    '01-'02: 4PPG, 1APG, 1RPG, 33% shooting (T-Mac averaged 31/6/6)

    Now, compare that to Sprewell in the playoffs in 2004-

    20PPG, 4APG, 4RPG, 42% shooting, 39% shooting from 3


    No, from a statistical standpoint his '97-'98, '99-'00, and '00-'01 seasons were just as good as his first season with KG. The only reason why he didn't make the ASG then was because his teams sucked, much the reason why Brand's only 2 appearences to the ASG was when he was on teams that were above .500 at the time of ASG ballots.

    And KG milked the highest payroll in the league rather than going to another team that hadn't lost its draft picks and had never been past the 1st round in franchise history.

    Eh, I think with a healthy McGrady (or Kobe, Bron, Iverson or Wade) the team is a 50+ win team and can make noise in the playoffs, but that's certainly open to debate.

    Open to inerpretation.

    T-Mac, when healthy, is also one of the top talents in the league, and the talent they have had by their sides and failure to have much success in the playoffs is very similar. I am not saying T-Mac is a better player than KG, but the question one poster raised was what kind of superstar has had the kinf of failures T-Mac has had in the playoffs...the answer is KG.
     
  8. jondoe

    jondoe Member

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    Well, right now ESPN is reporting that Tmac has a stretched tendon. I really don't know what a stretched tendon is, isnt that good? Don't you want the tendons to be stretched? Anyway...they said he'll be out at least another week...sounds like something fishy is going on, how do you go from a bruised knee to a stretched tendon???
     
  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Better than a torn tendon for sure.

    Can we at least now stop questioning T_mac's heart and calling him a quiter now that we know he's legitimately been playing injured?

    Shouldn't that tell you the guy has heart?
     
  10. jondoe

    jondoe Member

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    Did he get a stretched tendon reaching for the TV remote?
     
  11. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    For the exact same reason we won't trade Yao.

    Go figure that out now.
     
  12. groovemachine

    groovemachine Member

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    I just don't think Tracy's heart is in it anymore, it may be time to cut our losses and get a reputable starting point guard (brooks as backup), another scorer, maybe a draft pick...i just don't see the passion this year in TMAC. :(
     
  13. jondoe

    jondoe Member

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    I think if you add a scorer/slasher wingman and a decent point guard, rox will be pretty solid and can make a run for the playoffs...
     
  14. omax

    omax Member

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    Completely agree. His heart just isn't in it anymore
     
  15. wheelmi

    wheelmi Contributing Member

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    Could you be more of a d******d?

    McGradey increased role was one of the primary reasons they made the playoffs his last year. I guess you don't watch basketball??

    Davis had his one all-star appearance the year after McGrady left Toronto. 99/00, he averaged a whopping 11 points a game. Really an all-star year?? As for the rest of your world beater line-up, after Christy, none of the other players had any decent stats. Put that team in the West and they don't even make the play-offs.


    Already rebutted by Icehouse and Nitro, but here is a little more to add insult to injury for you.

    The so called devastated team T-Mac left in Orlando had as its second leading scorer a washed up Juwan Howard, and no Grant Hill. Oh and I guess T-Mac was the GM of the team?? Weisbrod moves and the absence of Hill was the primary reason the Magic sucked, not T-Mac.

    Damn, did you look at the rosters of the Orlando teams McGrady lead to the playoffs? I am even more impressed now that I looked at the rosters. They completely sucked. I am suprised they even got to the playoffs. Damn T-Mac was freaking great!!!!

    You are the only one living in a fantasy world! A dark world of hate and ignorance! :D

    Shaq played all 23 playoff and 59 regular season games and demanded double and tripple teams throughout. If you do the math (you can do math right?), Shaq only missed approx. 22% of the games played and 0% of the playoff games. Not to mention he averaged roughly 20/10 in the process. He also averaged 22/11 in the conference finals, so to say he was not a major contributor, or that Wade did it all by himself is just plain stupid, or All Souled Out, if you will.

    I am not saying Wade was not awesome or that he did not have a great year, I merely stated that he had Shaq to help and could not have done it without Shaq (an undisputable fact by the way).

    Oh and by the way, better stop using those big words, err that one big word, you might hurt yourself!
     
  16. jondoe

    jondoe Member

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  17. diegot143

    diegot143 Member

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    move him;

    Some of you guys say why trade him when hes the best player.. or why do it if we are not gettng stars back for him.. since he has left has the team not been playing team ball? isnt it refreshing to see them unite and give their hearts out there? Mc grady is a cancer. When and if he comes back the first few games he will do good. and every one will be praising him.. but as games pile up his negative mentality will slowly but surely spread and again the team will lack heart.. is he not injury prone? i say we take a chance and let him go and get solid heart players back that will fit in RA's system that will have a team mentality and are not cancers.. It would be refreshing to se that in my opinion but yeah..
     

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