I can buy that argument. You can't teach a player to finish. The player must do it. I do believe he can practice this though. My take on this is that KT is so focused on not being blocked, he shoots too fast and hard. My hope is he learns that the best he can do is make his move and pass it if help comes, but shoot with NO FEAR if help doesn't come. If his man blocks him, shake his hand, but don't shoot like you're expecting it. I have to disagree here. He beat Jamison 3 times in a row, on 3 possessions in a row. And they were all layups of different types. Pretty much everytime he scores in the low post, he is beating someone off the dribble. It's not like he is scoring with Mo' jumpers or Roger's energizer junk-bunny layups. He definitely is beating people off the dribble and scoring. Just way too many missed finishes.
maybe i should clarify what i mean by "beating someone off the dribble". i mean facing someone up and either blowing right by them (ala mobley) or juking their drawers off (ala iverson) to get to the basket. kt usually takes a hard dribble, maybe a deke one direction, then spins opposite. i know this is probably semantics, sorry. but that's what i meant. either way, he's not finishing. you know what i'd like to see kt do more of? finish with a damn dunk. flush it. i'm right at 6'4", and i was never a light finisher. the biggest problem i had was laying the ball up or finger rolling when a flush would have worked. when i started playing bigger players, i realize that **** wasn't going to fly. so i started dunking. everytime possible. everytime not possible. but i tried, and got my respect. why do i bring this up? because it appears kenny hasn't learned this lesson. he's still trying to lay it up. try to flush it, and maybe some of those phantom fouls will start going his way, instead of him always collecting them. just a thought. ------------------
sorry about the double post here, but the more i think about it, i just don't think kenny has the cajones to do it. it's not that i hate kenny thomas. really, i don't. it's just that he's one of those run-on-your-toes, charmin-soft, whining, punks that you want to punch in the chest and tell to ACT LIKE A MAN!!!! i want kt to foul someone hard. i want kt to dunk on shawn bradley, not get pinned against the glass. as for fizer, i'd never question his heart. even in college, he took a challenge to heart and sacked up. look at his games against the revered kenyon martin. look at all his big games. you'll see who stepped up. then again, what was the big question on kenny thomas when he came into the nba? 1.) heart 2.) dedication (same thing, if you ask me) 3.) weight yea, he's added some weight. he's up to 265. the problem is the weight is a microcosm of his entire game: Big and Weak. ------------------
MManal, True about what other's tell you. I admire your draftsource.net. Trust your eyes. But, I think you should throw out your college tapes on Fizer. You don't need those anymore. There is no shame in Fizer not performing, especially if he isn't the 6'9 we were told (which I still say is a lie). You should come over someday and watch my Joe Smith tapes and Stacey King...hehe! I think it is more impressive how you and The Cat called Collier. Unbelievable busts will happen. If Fizer is less than what you thought, c'est la vie. Stay objective though, even after your picks are in. We need to get you league pass or something, so you can keep giving us updated reports through their rookie year. Let me ask you: Did you see KT's first 3 years in college. I did. He was a stud, and with no teammates like Fizer had.
verse, now you got me doing the double post (actually a triple post, I guess). Man, I see Thomas's eyes differently. Maybe it is because I was a light-footed, quick jumper, too. But that doesn't mean you get pushed around. You remember how Jordan danced. There is a different way of using your legs that allows you to respond to reflex faster. Never spread them too far, and ALWAYS stay on the balls of your feet. Watch Langhi; he spreads them too far. I learned this early from playing both tennis and basketball. Dance baby. It also prevents ankle injuries. Anyhow, I see that footwork in Kenny. As a 6'1 forward, I generally was always playing against people bigger. Quick jumping, high-quick release, dribbling, eyes-up passing against help, and a plethora of spin moves is what it took to not get my **** blocked. I absolutely needed all that to survive. Especially when I was in the Army and playing street ball later, where they remember your ****. Anyhow, I see all that in Kenny, too. I completely empathize with his moves. And in his eyes I see fire...a crazy fire. The quiet trash-talker type. So no wonder we disagree. You don't see yourself in him, but I do see myself in him. That's pretty funny, you have to admit.
HP, Kenny was considered a very good college player but those knocks that verse is referring were there. When evaluating a college player, you dont just look at his stats and see how much he dominated. You have to attempt to translate his game to the NBA seeing how it would fit. When I compare KT against Fizer I dont look at what they did in which game or what type of statistics they produced in college. We know for a fact that KT is undersized at 6-7 for the PF spot. The question to ask yourself, how is his game/skills differentiated to make up for that? Does he have extra special explosiveness for his position? No. Does he have exceptionally long arms for his height? No. Does he have exceptional ball handling for his position? No. The one advantage he does have is a lot better footwork but is that enough to make up for all the other deficiences? I dont think so. I know you love to cite that game where he finished three times in a row over Jamison, but I dont view that as anything extra special in the grand scheme of things. What a lot of folks dont realize is that Jamison is actually undersized for the PF position (his real height is about 6-7 1/2). This is why Jamison had to learn to play some SF by developing a good outside shot and took longer to develop. However now, with that development, he has been able to outquick and face up the bigger players and post up the smaller ones. He was worth the gamble because he is so explosive and really differentiated himself with that quick second jump. Certain players have that pogostick ability and Jamison is one of them. The ones that do usually become very good rebounders and active around the rim. However, I dont view KT as having any of these attributes. I agree with you that a good college player does not equal a good NBA player. Thats the main reason for draftsource b/c too many sites out there evaluate in that fashion. Too many people are dependent on a player's college statistics or performances in certain games. I honestly feel that Marcus Fizer's skills are very differentiated which is why I feel he is better than KT. On the surface they may look like similar players (good passers, good footwork), but a further inspection reveals the differences. Even if Fizer isnt 6-9 he likely isnt far off from that. If he was 6-5 like you have claimed before, he would not have been the 4th overall pick. Something like that causes you to fall far and fast. The Chris Porter case is a good example of that. Porter skills wise is actually very similar to Jamison coming out of college and was projected as a top 5 pick at the beginning of last season. However, due to the simple fact that he measured at 6-5, his stock fell through the floor. If Porter were 6-9 or close to that, he would have been a top 10 pick. Not meaning to get long winded but trust me, this evaluation of Fizer is not based on the thought process "Since he was so dominant in college, he will be good in the pros." If we practiced that at draftsource.net we'd be another dime a dozen site and would be wasting people's time. Trust me, we dont evaluate talent like that. We essentially trash the stat pages and what not when we evaluate. You wont hear a re-statement of hype in these evaluations ie I cant think of any other site that said Kenyon Martin is not the best player in this draft, and Jason Collier should be a first round pick. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net [This message has been edited by MManal (edited January 09, 2001).]
You know everyone measures KT at 6-8, right. Why do you keep saying 6-7. I said Fizer could be 6-5 based on your comments that KT is 6-7. Here's what I've seen about height. I've measured KT while sitting in the 8th row to be very close to Mo's height, and other 6'9 listed players. Mo' actually looks shorter than Bullard, than KT looks shorter than Mo'. Further, I saw Fizer significantly shorter than KT in the Chicago game. This is the best I can do by using my own eyes: 1. If Bullard is 6-10, and Mo' is 6'9", KT is 6'8 1/2 2. Fizer looks 2 inches shorter than KT. 3. If Mo' and Fizer hunch, they should walk upright. 4. If KT stands up straight and walks on the balls of his feet, good for him, that makes him more evolved that Mo' and Fizer, see--told ya! 'eh DaDakota the Darwinist. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 09, 2001).]
heyp: ; that is strange... so, what deal would you make for fizer? mmanal: agreed. agreed. agreed. i, too, did not - and do not - feel that kenyon is the best player in that draft. my vote still goes to darius miles. ------------------
Have any of you watched Fizer?!?! HE SUCKS!!!. I've watched so many bulls games this year and he unimpresses me more each time. He has NO SHOT, NO POST UPMOVES, NO NOTHING! I dont care if he's 6'9, KT is a better ball player.Thats not biassed either, thats the damn truth. This killer instinct I and hustle you talk about in Fizer is a damn lie. Kenny hustles just as hard as that overrated excuse for a basketball player. Watch Marcus shoot in a game, it's a painful thing to watch.We'd especially be getting ripped off if we threw in picks. We could draft someone with as much talent as Fizer in the draft. I also wanna see Chicago stay where it belongs.....the bottom of the NBA. ------------------
Alot of you talk about the things you saw Fizer do in COLLEGE and thats nice but it doesnt mean jack sh*t at the NBA level. He's not a good NBA player. Our 22nd pick, who some of already think has reached his peak with no room for further improvement, had a better season than Fizer. If you cant get consistent minutes on the worst team in the NBA, that doesnt say alot about you as a player. ------------------
I watched him for a year last year, and IMO he is exactly the type of guy I would like to see on the Rockets. His potential for growth is tremendous. I see a fire in his eyes I don't in a lot of players. He has a wide array of offensive moves that I have seen time and time again. They haven't just gone away. So why is he struggling? Well not everyone becomes an NBA star overnight, and natural PFs aren't supposed to be playing SF either. If the trade is KT, possibly a 1st (which would be around the 15-20 range), and two 2nds, I'd definitely do that. Players like Fizer won't become available everyday. If this is the player we are after, GO FOR IT!!! ------------------ President of the Jason Collier and Mo Taylor fan club! Draftsource.net ClutchTown.com
tacoma, seriously man, you should ease up on the caffeine. I don´t think Fizer is worth the trade either and i´m not giving any picks that help chicago get out of the basement they so richly deserve. everyone is screwing the jerrys these days. let us not be the ones who help them out of they hole they dug for themselves. ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
Good to se we can already tell whether or not players will be good in the NBA after 30 games of limited minutes, most of which being out of position. Fizer can't get consistent minutes because HE IS A POWER FORWARD, and one of the best in the NBA, Elton Brand, IS ALREADY THERE. ------------------ President of the Jason Collier and Mo Taylor fan club! Draftsource.net ClutchTown.com
first of all, it's completely premature to judge fizer on 30 games worth of a season. it's downright asinine to do it when you consider that he's playing a new position. not just a switch from 4 to 5 (which is still a big switch), we're talking about a switch from the post to the wing. and it's completely ludicrous to say that he SUCKS, when the guy playing fizer's natural position plays the large majority of the game and has his personal autograph on the low left block. ------------------
Forget Fizer... I'd trade Francis for Crawford and their #1 pick, but not until draft day, I wouldn't want Francis to help them win games.
Why do all you KT Haters seem to think he will not get *ANY* better but think Fizer will become *ssloads better in the next couple of seasons? I'm with HeyP KT will and *IS* getting better He does play a little timid [PHANTOM CALLS WILL DO THAT TO YOU!!] [Which you must admit he gets an enormous amount of bull**** calls] Kt has what? a season and a Half under his belt? WOO WOOO he's a vet . . . I have noticed he is holding back on the 3 [to his detriment sometimes.] I LOVE TO SEE THE DEFENSE RUN HARD AT HIM AND HE GUNS TO THE MIDDLE!! [he will become a better passer there too] I Agree if he would slam more he'd be 100% better. . .but it will come. . . it will come Rocket River THEY ALL HAVE POTENTIAL!! ------------------
If Mo fits into our long term plans, Fizer doesn't. If all Fizer costs is a couple of conditional picks (the one from the Drew trade, and something else), by all means, do it. But guaranteeing our own pick, probable lottery, isn't a good idea. ------------------ The Serious Police are watching. Follow the rules or be assimilated. Shandon is underrated.
I love Francis, but you've got to be objective here. We don't have a defense in our future, and we don't have transition. And more importantly, we really don't even have trade bait to produce that other than Francis. PG built teams don't win it, unless you have revolutionary transition (Magic) or a revolutionary defense (Isiah). Yes, I'd trade Francis for the #1 pick next year and Crawford...in a heartbeat.
hp, aren´t you being a bit too harsh on Francis? You are pointing his current flaws as if they are going to be with him for the rest of his carrer. I´m not sure what kind of defensive specialist Payton was in his first years, but if you ask me, Francis is the closest thing to Payton in the league. In a few years Mo and Francis might become as sucessfull a duo as Kemp and Payton were. And you know very well were would they have ended up if it wasn´t for #23. The kid WILL get better. Why do you have so much faith on Cuttino´s improvement and none on Francis´? ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
