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Chicago combine test results...(Simien disappointing)

Discussion in 'NBA Draft' started by ClutchCityReturns, Jun 16, 2005.

  1. ClutchCityReturns

    ClutchCityReturns Contributing Member

    Apr 26, 2005
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    There are three ways to help your draft stock at the Chicago predraft camp.

    First, you can actually play well in the event, like Luther Head and David Lee did, and convince scouts that you're first-round material.

    Second, you can stand against a wall, spread your arms out and possibly measure longer/bigger than team originally thought you were. Guys like Chris Paul and Ike Diogu did that this year.

    Finally, you can go through the NBA draft combine and prove to scouts that you're quicker, stronger, or can jump higher than your original scouting report.

    Insider exclusively obtained a list of the Chicago pre-draft camp combine results on Wednesday. The combine measures four key areas: strength (bench press repetitions of 185 pounds), vertical jump, lane agility (how fast a player moves laterally around the key), and speed (¾-court sprint). Then the league adds those up and gives an athletic ranking to each player in the draft.

    The overall winner this year was Oklahoma State's Joey Graham, who blew away the competition. Second was Georgia Tech's Will Bynum. Other top players with good scores included Rashad McCants (3rd overall), Luther Head (6th), David Lee (11th), Marvin Williams (15th), Chris Paul (16th) and Raymond Felton (18th).

    There was one major surprise in the top 20 -- Illinois point guard Deron Williams finished 10th, ahead of both Paul and Felton. Part of that had to do with strength; Williams bench pressed 185 pounds 15 times, which is really great for a point guard. However, that wasn't the full story.

    There have been major questions about Williams' lateral quickness, but he actually tested quicker than Paul in the lane agility drill and finished .03 seconds behind Paul in the sprint. Williams has lost about 15 pounds and is down to 7½ percent body fat, which obviously has helped his athleticism.

    The bottom end of the spectrum included mostly international players and lumbering big men. Georgia Tech center Luke Schensher finished at the bottom of the list (75th). Ersan Ilyasova (74th) and Martynas Andriuskevicius (73rd) also tested poorly.

    The shock on the low end was high school star Monta Ellis, who finished 70th. His strength, vertical jump and lateral quickness were all on the low end of the scale. That could be devastating to his draft chances.

    Other disappointments included Andrew Bogut (61st), Martell Webster (60th), Rudy Fernandez (57th), Antoine Wright (55th), Jarrett Jack (54th) and Francisco Garcia (51st).

    Luther Head ranked as the most athletic point guard in camp. Will Bynum took the award for the 2-guards. Joey Graham won for 3s, David Lee for 4s and Marcin Gortat for centers.

    Ellis was the worst ranked guard in camp at either position. Ilyasova finished last among small forwards while Taylor Coppenrath was last for power forwards and Luke Schenscher finished at the bottom of the heap for centers.

    On the individual test front, Will Bynum recorded the highest one-step vertical jump at 40½ inches. Gerald Green and Ronnie Price tied for second at 39 inches, followed by Luther Head at 38½. Chris Paul and Hakim Warrick rounded out the top-five, each launching a 38-inch leap.

    Luke Schensher recorded the worst vertical jump, at 26½ inches. He was followed by Taylor Coppenrath and Jason Klotz (27 inches) and Martynas Andriuskevicius and Wayne Simien (27½ inches).

    Joey Graham won the strength test, bench pressing 185 pounds an impressive 26 times. Ike Diogu finished second with 21 reps, followed by Chuck Hayes with 20. Channing Frye helped himself shed the soft label a bit by hoisting the bar 19 times. Eric Williams, Marcin Gortat and David Simon all finished tied for fifth with 18 reps.

    As happens every year, several top players were unable or barely able to do this drill. Monta Ellis, Rudy Fernandez, Martynas Andriuskevicius, Brandon Rush and Daryl Dorsey got a zero for the drill. Luke Schensher and Travis Diener could only lift the bar once.

    In the lane agility drill, Michigan State's Alan Anderson recorded the fastest time at 10.32 seconds. Rashad McCants was second at 10.39. John Lucas ranked third, Rudy Fernandez fourth and Raymond Felton fifth.

    Jason Klotz, Ellis Myles and Deji Akindele finished at the bottom of the heap. Monta Ellis and Andrew Bogut also recorded terrible times of above 12 seconds.

    In the ¾-court sprint, Will Bynum recorded the fastest time at 3 seconds. Joey Graham, Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants and John Lucas were also in the top five. Marvin Williams and Julius Hodge finished in the top 10.

    Jason Klotz earns the awarded as the slowest guy in camp with a 3.68 seconds time. Ersan Ilyasova, Andrew Bogut, D'or Fischer and Torin Francis rounded out the five slowest guys in camp.

    Here's a look at how 30 of the top draft prospects performed in each event. Note that several top prospects, including Fran Vazquez, Johan Petro, Nate Robinson, Ryan Gomes, Brandon Bass, Matt Walsh and Linas Kleiza, did not participate in the testing.

  2. ClutchCityReturns

    ClutchCityReturns Contributing Member

    Apr 26, 2005
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    Name, Bench press, vertical jump, Lane Agility, ¾-court sprint and Overall rank.

    Joey Graham/26/36"/10.62/3.05/1
    Rashad McCants/15/34½/10.39/3.11/3
    Luther Head/14/38½"/11.12/3.21/7
    Deron Williams/15/35"/10.83/3.25/10
    David Lee/14/32½"/10.80/3.19/11
    Marvin Williams/12/35"/11.11/3.17/15
    Chris Paul/10/38½"/11.09/3.22/16
    Raymond Felton/6/33½"/10.50/3.06/18
    Ronny Turiaf/15/33"/11.50/3.23/21
    Gerald Green/7/39"/11.2/3.21/24
    Chris Taft/14/33"/11.26/3.27/25
    Julius Hodge/14/29"/10.89/3.18/26
    Sean May/12/33"/11.04/3.29/27
    Danny Granger/10/34"/10.84/3.34/31
    Channing Frye/19/31"/11.60/3.38/33
    Dwayne Jones/15/31½"/11.87/3.25/38
    Ike Diogu/21/31"/11.94/3.45/39
    Charlie Villanueva/11/31"/10.86/3.3/42
    Wayne Simien/11/27½"/11.05/3.35/49
    Francisco Garcia/5/31½"/10.63/3.33/51
    Jarrett Jack/5/28½"/10.87/3.24/54
    Antoine Wright/12/29½"/11.45/3.41/55
    Rudy Fernandez/0/35½"/10.48/3.33/56
    Martell Webster/7/30½"/11.39/3.39/59
    Andrew Bogut/13/33½"/12.06/3½1/60
    Hakim Warrick/11/38"/N/A/3.22/61
    Monta Ellis/0/31½"/12.13/3.31/70
    Martynas Andriuskevicius/0/27½"/11.94/3.42/73
    Ersan Ilyasova/2/30"/11.59/3½6/74

    So who was helped and hurt by the testing?


    Deron Williams -- Scouts have been questioning his quickness and athleticism all year. Now that he's lost some of that body fat, that no longer seems to be an issue. He's not as fast as Raymond Felton and doesn't jump as high as Chris Paul, but he's clearly in the same league athletically.

    Joey Graham -- It doesn't come as a huge surprise that Graham came out on top. If you've seen him play much, you know he's an unbelievable athlete. Still, finishing on top of the heap should guarantee he gets selected in the lottery.

    Will Bynum -- He was the last guy invited to Chicago and played extremely well, especially on the defensive end. A few scouts believe he might be a better prospect than Nate Robinson (the guy who tested as the top athlete in Chicago last year). I doubt he gets selected ahead of Nate, but he's definitely in the second-round mix now.

    Rashad McCants -- There are still questions about his attitude, but it's rare to find such a great shooter who can also test off the charts athletically (just look at Martell Webster and Antoine Wright). Someone's going to ignore the baggage and take him in the late lottery to mid-first round.

    Channing Frye -- He's stronger and more athletic than scouts have given him credit. The 19 reps on the bench press will turn a lot of heads.

    David Lee -- Athletically, he tested as the top power forward in the draft. His lane agility scores are what really stand out. Lee has very quick feet, which will really help him defensively in the pros. Combine that with his strong play in Chicago and Lee seems like he's another step closer to securing a spot in the first round.

    Marcin Gortat -- He had just a so-so camp, but he tested out as the most athletic center in the draft. He could be off the board in the first 10 picks of the second round if he decides to stay in the draft.

    Sean May -- His numbers don't jump out at you, but he showed a better vertical jump and more agility than his main competition: Ike Diogu, Wayne Simien and Chris Taft. Maybe that will balance out the fact that he measured smaller than all of them.


    Andrew Bogut -- He's been trying to dispel the "great white stiff" myth for the past few weeks. This doesn't help. While his vertical leap is actually above average for a guy his size, his lateral quickness and sprinting speed were just awful. That will hurt him defensively.

    Wayne Simien -- Simien finished well below the other top big men in almost every area. Especially shocking is his lack of explosion jumping off one foot. His one-step vertical was only a half inch more than his standing vertical. That was, by far, the worst in the camp.

    Antoine Wright -- Scouts have been warning that Wright looks more athletic than he actually is. At the combine, he was significantly below Francisco Garcia, a guy almost every scout in the league has knocked for his lack of athleticism. Had he not benched an impressive 12 reps, he would have landed close to the bottom. That's going to come back to haunt Wright.

    Jarrett Jack -- He has great size and toughness, but athletically, he tested well behind most of the point guards in this draft. With Roko Ukic making a strong push, it could cause him to slip.

    The High Schoolers -- Monta Ellis, Martell Webster and Brandon Rush all tested terribly. That's partly because of their age and partly because guys like Ellis and Rush might not have been training for these particular tests the way some players do.

    We knew that Webster was just an average athlete but Ellis was a huge shock. For an undersized 2-guard to be successful in the League, he has to be long, quick and explosive. Ellis is none of the above. There's been talk that Minnesota is flirting with taking him at No. 14. It's pretty hard to justify that after seeing these numbers.

    The Internationals -- They always struggle every year. With the exception of Gortat, they all were near the bottom of the heap. Most of them have never lifted weights before (which hurts their bench press numbers) and most are bigs lacking any real explosion or quickness.

    Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.
  3. caffreys_irish_ale

    caffreys_irish_ale Contributing Member

    May 20, 2005
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    I'm suprised Hakim Warrick wasn't listed on the Losers list. But wow, what a vertical jump, I don't see why he ranked so low. Or why he has N/A for Lane Agility.
  4. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member

    Mar 21, 2000
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    They're all related. He didn't do the lane agility test, but the overall rank is a formula that takes account the rank for each test. Basically, since he didn't do it, it ranks him 75th or whatever. As you see, he tied or beat (sometimes very significantly, like nearly a foot on his vertical significantly) Simien in every other test.

    Warrick was 4th among the prospects in the vertical behind only Gerald Green, a 6-7 super athlete, and 2 PGs (Luther Head and Chris Paul).

    Warrick would've finished in the top 20 if he had a reasonable lane agility time as you'd expect. He did one more bench press, had 1/2'' inch less vertical, and identical 3/4 sprint times compared with Chris Paul, who was ranked 16th.
  5. ClutchCityReturns

    ClutchCityReturns Contributing Member

    Apr 26, 2005
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    #5 ClutchCityReturns, Jun 16, 2005
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2005
  6. The Real Shady

    The Real Shady Contributing Member

    Jun 8, 2000
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    Watch out for David Lee as a potential Rockets selection.
  7. smoothie

    smoothie Jabari Jungle

    Mar 1, 2001
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    i would put $$ down that this means we don't draft simien.

    May and Lee will be there, head looks good too.
  8. Yaomania345

    Yaomania345 Member

    Jun 28, 2002
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    Good stuff thanks for the Info. I hope the rockets dont draft David Lee.
  9. topfive

    topfive CF OG
    Supporting Member

    Jun 12, 2002
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    Man, anyone would have to be absolutely nuts to pick Bogut at #1.

    Or they'd have to be Isiah Thomas. ;)
  10. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

    Jul 28, 2000
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    Bogut has a 33 inch vertical which is quite good for a 7 footer. I'm not real high on Bogut but hes definitely not a stiff.
  11. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Jul 6, 2000
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    I'd be interested to see the score (or the test results) for some of today's NBA players (not just stars either, but role players and 12th men).
  12. mulletman

    mulletman Member

    Jun 17, 2002
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    looking at the numbers above with those from the other thread:

    Name Height Height (w/ shoes) Weight (lbs) Wingspan Reach
    Lee, David 6' 7¾" 6' 9" 229½ 7' 0" 8' 10½"
    Diogu, Ike 6' 6½" 6' 8" 255.4 7' 3½" 9' 1"
    Simien, Wayne 6' 7¼" 6' 9" 255.8 7' 0" 8' 11"
    Turiaf, Ronny 6' 8" 6' 9¼" 237.8 7' 1½" 8' 10½"
    Warrick, Hakim 6' 7¼" 6' 8½" 215.0 7' 2" 9' 0"

    it appears that, just based on pure numbers, david lee moves up in the draft and simien moves down.

    but early workout reports by ford and others said that simien was having some great workouts and would be moving up in the draft, so i'm not sure how much these numbers mean.
  13. RocketManJosh

    RocketManJosh Contributing Member

    Apr 1, 2003
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    I personally wouldn't put too much stock in these stats. Simien has proven that he can be a beast on the boards regardless of these numbers.

    Player after player has proved in the NBA that rebounding is all about instincts and heart, which Simien has shown us IN REAL GAME situation.

    Granted these numbers can be helpful and can defintely break some ties, but I think Simien did enough in his career to overcome them.
  14. JamesC

    JamesC Member

    Jun 18, 2002
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    I'd be very upset if the rockets took David Lee.
  15. gucci888

    gucci888 Contributing Member

    May 20, 2002
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    Agreed. I don't like using verticals and bench presses to critique a player, when is he going to have to do push ups on the court?

    Simien has shown that he is a NBA ready player that can contribute right away. He was a monster under the boards at KU and he was also a great scorer. Obviously there is a big difference btwn college and NBA, but I think Simien, Bogut, and Diogu are the only players strong enough to bang with the big boys right away.

    My draft wishlist:

    1. Hakim Warrick- Moved back to my #1, enough potential to trade up for.
    2. Wayne Simien- Could be the next Boozer, great rebounder-good scorer.
    3. Rudy Fernandez- Will most likely withdraw, but could be the next Manu.
    4. CJ Miles- See #3
    5. Francisco Garcia- Best shooter in the draft, period.
  16. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

    May 16, 2000
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    What, if anything, does this tell you? Yao would obviously come in last if he participated. I imagine Steve Nash wouldn't do so hot either.

    IMO, they should waste less time doing this kind of stuff and spend more time actually having these guys play against each other. That, and mental evaluations...
  17. xiki

    xiki Contributing Member

    Jun 18, 2002
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    Rox will move up into teens and select the player of their choice IMHO.
  18. Williamson

    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Dec 6, 2002
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    Wow. Sounds like Monta Ellis and Martell Webster need to go back to school.
  19. Mango

    Mango Contributing Member

    Sep 23, 1999
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    How is that possible?
  20. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

    May 16, 2000
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    Well, you play them against each other...where's the confusion? :confused:

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